The Artemis Bow.

So as we are all aware by now, the Artemis Bow is the weakest Relic by far and even is in the running to be benched by the Crystal Tower bow if the bow has a certain stat on it.
So I want to ask you, should it be improved? The Skill speed swapped for Crit Chance and the WD to be a little more than just +1 when upgrading to the iLvl90 version.

People seem to claim Bard is an OP class and I would agree, up until Turn4/5 where it's outclassed by almost every other DPS in terms of damage and reverts into a Support class, while this isn't actually a bad thing. I'm not sure if Bard was meant to originally be a Support type class like it was in XI or some of the stats haven't been tweaked about yet.

Mind you I'm not just saying this as a biased Bard player I'm simply asking for the general census of the Bow it self.

Bards underrate the value of Skill Speed. SS is the weakest stat by a good margin, but it still has value.

In fact, if you create a random "I-wish" Crystal Tower bow with the following stats at the "relic" level:

WD: 40
DEX: 27
ACC: 33
CRT: 23

And compare it to the R+1:

WD: 41
DEX: 31
ACC: 37
SS: 26


The CT bow has a lower total stat weight than the r+1 by 2.8%. Even if you pretend SS has 0 value at all, the R+1 bow still wins by 2%.

Edit:

So any talk of "benching" the R+1 in favor of a lower iL CT weapon is pure QQ exaggerated whinefest.

In terms of whether the Bard bow needs a buff, /shrug. IMO the lower WD compensates for the high synergy Bard mechanics re: all the OGCDs Bards get, the high degree of Bard utility overall, and the ease of maintaining their DPS.

Is it too much? Enough? Shrug.

Bards parse pretty well (and have some things that don't accurately get parsed), so I think it's far too early to call.

Well SMN weapon compared to the turn 5 weapon is so bad. So yeah, it's not a Bard-only thing.

I understand that SS is an important stat in it's own right but it needs a huge amount to actually make any noticeable difference, compared to Crit Chance where, say 26 would actually make a difference. Though I'm unfamiliar with the crit chance formula so I may be totally wrong.

Edit: I would also like to make clear I meant benching the regular iLvl80 Relic not the +1, sorry for the confusion. If both have similar stats and the CT bow has Crit Chance more people than not are going to choose the CT one.

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Originally Posted by Mugsan

compared to Crit Chance where, say 26 would actually make a difference. Though I'm unfamiliar with the crit chance formula so I may be totally wrong.

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26 crit rating is something like 1.8% chance to crit.

Have you actually seen that much crit make a difference? FWIW, crits in FF14 are also only +50% damage, not +100% damage.

Crits are good, but they're overrated. You even see Monks claiming that they should stack nothing but crit, even though they have 0 synergy with the stat unlike Bards with ROB.


Edit:

But back to the main discussion ... more power to you and good luck with asking for itemization adjustments. Not sure if it's worth it though -- the net DPS difference is pretty small even if they swap the SS for CRT.

Edit2:

Effort a lot better invested to get the elemental resist debuff song to apply to WB and Flaming Arrow.

The critical damage isn't the thing I'm worried about, it's how often my Bites proc Bloodletter. Also I was never asking for an item adjustment I just wondered what other people thought about the bow and IF it should be adjusted.

a bard crying....

You know Easymode I'd still like to see this magical max level bard you have where you can actually put all this "theorycrafting" you have to work. Anyone can make a spreadsheet or come up with random numbers trying to label something better than the next, but all the spreadsheets in the world aren't going to mean shit when numbers and theories are pulled out of your ass just because you have a thing for an extremely subpar stat for this class.

As people have told you in various other threads SS does not affect our dots in the least(the only redeeming factor SS could have for us). The other thing you need to look at is just how much stacking SS would hurt us, it takes away from more dmg(det/crit) and gives us less RoB procs because it takes away that crit and this is because on most of our ilvl 90 pieces of gear we get the choice of SS and Acc(a completely wasted stat after having it on our bis helm/gloves/chest/wep and a single accessory) or gear that has det/crit on it both of which supplement all of our damaging attacks(and then the two det/SS pieces).

What you also seem to think is that having all this SS is a-ok for us when unlike other classes(outside of the 400 tp we get through a cd) we only have a single option when that tp runs dry(which it will extremely fast with larger amounts of SS) and that is severely gimping ourselves by needing to song and keeping it up for the 30secs or so it will take for us to get a meaningful amount back to then take it off. Now the other option is to never have to even worry about the SS option (and gimping ourselves for a significant amount of the fight), and that is by taking the far better stats(crit/det) which will actually yield better results in the first place over SS but also make it so we do not have to gimp ourselves because we do not blast through our tp.

Now to be ontopic, yes they should increase the dmg output of the +1 and alagan wep by atleast another point to put us closer to what other classes are at. I've seen a lot of these spreadsheets and I've seen where bard is on them compared to other classes with equivalent gear and all with +1 weps. And you know what I've seen? all the other dps classes being higher than bard because their weapon parses out to be a bigger increase for them than what the bard weapon does. Sure movement is nice and so is utility and maybe that's what they had in mind for bards, for us to have more utility than others but be lower on dmg, and that's fine and all but since 2.0 came out bard has been labeled as nothing more than a damage dealer and if they want it to continue like that then bumping our weapons up even a slight amount to put us more inline with other classes is what needs to happen(or they need to actually make us more inline with a real support class where we have more than a single song that only helps magic dmg or a mana song that any geared healer will laugh at ever needing).

Tbh I always thought a bard would be damage/support when I first read about them and that really intrigued me. Who needs the best damage of all if you can support the entire raid and by that way earn your spot? Ok the damage needsa to be good but not the best.

Also where do you find the loot for crystal tower? :O

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Originally Posted by Kalldore

Tbh I always thought a bard would be damage/support when I first read about them and that really intrigued me. Who needs the best damage of all if you can support the entire raid and by that way earn your spot? Ok the damage needsa to be good but not the best.

Also where do you find the loot for crystal tower? :O

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He's making it up so it looks like something that "may" drop out of CT whether those will be the stats or not. CT gear is not known yet but the fact it is meant to be a gap closer(which wasn't needed in the first place) between DL and coil guarantees the ilvl will be 80, which the stats he listed for the wep are inline with what an ilvl 80 wep may or may not have.

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

He's making it up so it looks like something that "may" drop out of CT whether those will be the stats or not. CT gear is not known yet but the fact it is meant to be a gap closer(which wasn't needed in the first place) between DL and coil guarantees the ilvl will be 80, which the stats he listed for the wep are inline with what an ilvl 80 wep may or may not have.

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Ok just read it quickly and got a bit surprised. Then i'm on track.

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

You know Easymode I'd still like to see this magical max level bard you have where you can actually put all this "theorycrafting" you have to work.

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Don't be mad I can play a Bard better than most players who have a level 50 Bard :\.

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Anyone can make a spreadsheet or come up with random numbers trying to label something better than the next,

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But most people can't do it as well as I can.

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you have a thing for an extremely subpar stat for this class.

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I laugh when people claim it has 0 value because they're ignorant tools.

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As people have told you in various other threads SS does not affect our dots in the least

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Amazing new revelation!

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(the only redeeming factor SS could have for us)

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1. Roughly 30% of Bard damage is from DOTs. Another 11% are OGCDs. The rest of Bard damage is enhanced by Skill Speed.
2. You get better DOT uptime with some skill speed. Fantastic new revelation!

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The other thing you need to look at is just how much stacking SS would hurt us,

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Really? I should look at this? Why? I've already estimated the value of SS for Bards to be relatively poor compared to all other stats (the ~0.13 range compared to crit's ~0.23).

However, poor != 0.

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it takes away from more dmg(det/crit)

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I'd give up 10 det/crit for 10,000 skill speed. I'd even give up 10 det or crit for 20 skill speed.

Interesting that SS is itemized at roughly 1:1 with crit, and 1.5:1 with det so this choice is uncommon.

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and gives us less RoB procs

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Ironically, ROB procs are only ~10% of a Bard's damage output. In addition, the majority of a Bard's crit is from their base stat (341), Straight Shot (worth 144 crt), with a side of IR (worth 72 crt on average). Pretty sure your general proc rate won't change much with that 20 crit rating on a piece of gear.

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most of our ilvl 90 pieces of gear we get the choice of SS and Acc

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I don't really care. It's up to Bards to assess Bard gear, bro.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

1. Roughly 30% of Bard damage is from DOTs. Another 11% are OGCDs. The rest of Bard damage is enhanced by Skill Speed.
2. You get better DOT uptime with some skill speed. Fantastic new revelation!

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You DO understand how Bards DPS works right? It's almost entirely based on Procs. Skill Speed only really helps to apply the DoTs in the first place, not to actually make them hit critical and reset Bloodletter. For Bards Skill Speed is almost useless compared to Critical Chance.

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Originally Posted by Mugsan

You DO understand how Bards DPS works right? It's almost entirely based on Procs. Skill Speed only really helps to apply the DoTs in the first place, not to actually make them hit critical and reset Bloodletter. For Bards Skill Speed is almost useless compared to Critical Chance.

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Mugsan I don't think you understand how bard dps works.

At the MOST, if your bloodletters procced every single oGCD (which btw, can't happen, you'll drop off after 7 BLs), at MOST Bloodletters will be 50% of your damage, not even counting DoTs. If you count DoTs its <35% or so of your damage, even if it procced every single time.

The fact is that bloodletter isn't as good as you think it is.

It scales...almost (almost being key here) linearly with crit rate. There is no exponential scaling here, or anything to that effect. In fact if anything, it scales (RoB procs that is) logarithmically while total BLs scales linearly with crit.

Crit is...OKAY, it is bolstered by RoB procs certainly, but besides that it is only "okay". Bards do value crit more than some classes, but because of Bard's extremely low base weapon damage, determination tends to be a bit better because it is a flat increase to all your damage, independent of WD and Dex.

So as you get more Dex, WD, and Det, crit becomes more valuable.

But even then, you vastly overestimate BL's contribution to your damage.

Look here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...d-Crit-and-RoB

1% crit increases the number of BL procs you get by slightly more than 1, in six minutes. That is a MINISCULE difference in dps for 1% crit.

EDIT: With all that being said, crit is nice, but not the greatest thing ever.

Det is nice too, about even with crit.

SS is still bad, but its not going to somehow lower your dps.

And people forget the best thing about the artemis bow: it looks awesome, has an awesome animation, and does very satisfying click click click as it unfolds.

I completely understand what you're saying and I know 1% crit wont make a whole world of difference but it's a damn lot better than the 26 SS we get from the weapon and yes I do overestimate my BL's damage but it's also pretty fun to consistently be in the firing animation when you get several procs in a row.

Would also like to say while it doesn't make the that much DPS higher, having BL off CD a lot makes this class feel a lot more fun to play as I don't have to sit around and wait for the GCD to finish on my Heavy Shot. Cycling through BL-HS-BL-HS feels strangely satisfying.

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very satisfying click click click as it unfolds.

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and yes god damn yes, spent a good few minutes listening to it when I first got mine.

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Originally Posted by Mugsan

You DO understand how Bards DPS works right?

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No, they don't. Because they're a Lancer; not a Bard.

Can we all just collectively agree to stop reading Easymode's troll posts? We all understand that you're some super 1337 spreadsheet 360 no-scope ladder stall master, but seriously, get Bard to 50, then come talk to us. Maybe then people will take you a little more seriously.

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Originally Posted by Mugsan

You DO understand how Bards DPS works right? It's almost entirely based on Procs. Skill Speed only really helps to apply the DoTs in the first place, not to actually make them hit critical and reset Bloodletter.

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Wow, and here I thought Heavy Shot and Straight Shot were doing 45% of Bard damage.

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For Bards Skill Speed is almost useless compared to Critical Chance.

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You mean 1.7:1 useless right? Cause I agree, a 1:1.7 valuation for SS vs. CRT is pretty weak.

For what its worth, I agree with Easymode's math. His model matches pretty well with my simulation, and I think the difference can be attributed to the variable "worth" of RoB procs, whether they are earlier or later determines how much time you save. They are not independent of hardcasted BLs. I tried to probability it but I hate probability so it was hard for me =P

I don't think anyone is trying to bash a class or anything here, but we are all in it to try to get as much of the obfuscated information out there as possible.

That being said the reason there is argument is because it is a hard fact to hear, and that is the problem with math, it often gives us hard facts that are difficult to deal with (think of the prisoner dilemma, or the monty hall problem), where the math goes against everything we intuitively know.

The effect of additional RoB procs on the worth of Crit are low at best, miniscule at worst. It simply is not worth it to drop everything for crit.

Crit is still probably out best offstat because its easier to get crit than det, and SS is bad for essentially every class (perhaps not BLMs, but idk).

But it is not like, 10x better than SS, it does not mean SS is worthless, etc.

As long as you are not running out of TP by the end of the fight (as I demonstrated in the TP thread), SS is worth SOMETHING, and that something is supposedly about half as much as crit.

We all want to have a billion crit and have BL firing off all the time, its fun and looks awesome.

But that simply will not happen, and we shouldn't drop everything else to pump crit.

FWIW, CRT's something like 25-35% more effective on Bards than it is for DRGs and MNKs (and SS is 15-20% worse on Bards than it is on DRGs/MNKs).

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But that simply will not happen, and we shouldn't drop everything else to pump crit.

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Yes I agree that dropping literally everything for Crit is bad, if what you say about the falling off of BL is true. I just meant for the weapon not for the armours or anything. As this thread was originally about people's opinions of the weapon and if it should be changed or not. I didn't mean to start a discussion about Skill Speed vs Crit Chance.

It's pretty inevitable whenever I mention that SS doesn't have 0 value.

That aside, as I said in an earlier post before the tools derailed it, if Bard itemization is really that flooded with SS, then by all means try to get it changed. However, I'd generally recommend going after a Foe Reqiuem change to affect WB + Flaming Arrow, because that seems like more of a "bug" in the first place and will net Bards more DPS than a few item swaps from SS to CRT.

Yeah I completely agree with Foe's not actually doing anything to FLAMING arrow and WINDbite, it seems like a bit of an oversight.

Do we know what the crystal tower bow is going to look like?

If it is ilvl 80 as projected, there is probably no way in hell it can possibly match up to the ilvl 90 bow, simply because of WD and Dex allowances.

Perhaps the bow will follow the colouring of Cloud of Darkness? I mean as CT is a FF3 themed dungeon I don't see why the weapons wouldn't resemble her somewhat.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Wow, and here I thought Heavy Shot and Straight Shot were doing 45% of Bard damage.

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Parsing I don't get them doing near that much. They do about 33% of the damage. The two DOTs make up about 25.5% but are always under parsed on the parser. This has ranged from anywhere from 2.5% up to 25% less damage the parser calculates. I use flaming arrow in my rotation, but it doesn't get calculated, so just add it in manually if you want a percentage. It averages 71 damage/tick.

The single strongest attack is the basic attack. It does about 29%.

Bloodletter and Repel do roughly 12.5%.

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Originally Posted by Mugsan

Yeah I completely agree with Foe's not actually doing anything to FLAMING arrow and WINDbite, it seems like a bit of an oversight.

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Probably more an issue of the tooltip being poorly translated/outdated.

Foe increases magic damage, not elemental damage. SMN has tons of un-aspected magic damage that is boosted by Foe.

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Originally Posted by Woodberry

Parsing I don't get them doing near that much. [...]
The single strongest attack is the basic attack. It does about 29%.

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Yeah, I have autoattacks in a separate part of my model (they are included for stat weight calculations, but not when I did a quick/separate "what potency% of attacks were HS" calculation). I have, as a % of ability damage, dots (39%), SS/HS (47%), OGCDs (22%). Reducing those #s by a 29% AA contribution results in: dots (28%), SS/HS (34%), OGCDs (16%) (includes full flaming arrow).

But a 4x% number is more fun to wave around in a facetious post.

EasymodeX, please stop pulling numbers out of your ass.


"1. Roughly 30% of Bard damage is from DOTs. Another 11% are OGCDs. The rest of Bard damage is enhanced by Skill Speed.
2. You get better DOT uptime with some skill speed. Fantastic new revelation!"
No you don't get better DoT uptime from Skill speed actually, as it is you have to wait until after the icon of a stronger dot falls before reapplying a weaker one, because of the way DoT clipping works in this game, so the fact of the matter is, that no you cannot justify higher DoT uptime from faster GCDs if you have actual proof from a L50 bard you've played then feel free to let me know.

"Ironically, ROB procs are only ~10% of a Bard's damage output. In addition, the majority of a Bard's crit is from their base stat (341), Straight Shot (worth 144 crt), with a side of IR (worth 72 crt on average). Pretty sure your general proc rate won't change much with that 20 crit rating on a piece of gear."

So wait a minute, earlier you said ALL off the GCD skills are 11% of our dps, but River of Blood procs is a flat 10%...so Bloodletter coming off CD naturally, Misery's end, Blunt Arrow, Repelling Shot, and Flaming Arrow are all only 1% of our dps? Or is this an example of throwing numbers at a wall to see which ones stick?

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"Yeah, I have autoattacks in a separate part of my model (they are included for stat weight calculations, but not when I did a quick/separate "what potency% of attacks were HS" calculation). I have, as a % of ability damage, dots (39%), SS/HS (47%), OGCDs (22%). Reducing those #s by a 29% AA contribution results in: dots (28%), SS/HS (34%), OGCDs (16%) (includes full flaming arrow)."

So it went from 11% is OGCDs, to 10% is RoB, to 16% is OGCDs...which number is correct? If only you spent as much time leveling bard as you did making bad arguments about it with flawed logic...then you might be able to show us actual parses.

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One last note on skill speed, lets look at one final thing in terms of it, in the current bard rotation you're more or less TP Neutral, meaning you neither gain, nor LOSE tp with 0 skill speed, if you were to stack a significant amount of it, say 750, what would happen? Quite simply you'd run out of TP, be forced to use foe requiem (lowering the raid's single tar damage most likely), then run out of mana and afk-auto-attack until you regen enough to start using skills (~30s) the MINIMAL potential damage gained by skill speed would be canceled out by the time you're sitting there doing 30% (according to your math) of your normal damage for almost 30s.

I thought being able to move and use all of BRD's abilities made up for any downsides they have had or ever will have. xD

BRD threads are the worst

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Originally Posted by Tenkiei

EasymodeX, please stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

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My ass smells like roses.

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So wait a minute, earlier you said ALL off the GCD skills are 11% of our dps, but River of Blood procs is a flat 10%...so Bloodletter coming off CD naturally, Misery's end, Blunt Arrow, Repelling Shot, and Flaming Arrow are all only 1% of our dps? Or is this an example of throwing numbers at a wall to see which ones stick?

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Naw, ROB BL is ~11% of ability damage output. Since Bloodletter was the center of discussion, I referenced it alone as "OGCD" since I was typing fast, which was an error I suppose. I typed more slowly for Woodberry because heshe was worth responding to with more detail.

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So it went from 11% is OGCDs, to 10% is RoB, to 16% is OGCDs...which number is correct?

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11% for ROB BL and ~16% for OGCDs. Specifically, ROB BL, BL, FA. I didn't include ME because it's extremely marginal (note: I do not include Mercy Stroke for other classes, either), or Repelling Shot, because you're kinda dumb if you use it, except maybe on Titan I guess.

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then you might be able to show us actual parses.

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<insert discussion about the accuracy of DOTs in actual parses>

Btw, how's that Flaming Arrow in your parse, buddy?

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if you were to stack a significant amount of it, say 750, what would happen?

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What kind of idiot would stack 750 skill speed? You should be banned from the forums for suggesting it :\.

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Originally Posted by Tenkiei

One last note on skill speed, lets look at one final thing in terms of it, in the current bard rotation you're more or less TP Neutral, meaning you neither gain, nor LOSE tp with 0 skill speed, if you were to stack a significant amount of it, say 750, what would happen? Quite simply you'd run out of TP, be forced to use foe requiem (lowering the raid's single tar damage most likely), then run out of mana and afk-auto-attack until you regen enough to start using skills (~30s) the MINIMAL potential damage gained by skill speed would be canceled out by the time you're sitting there doing 30% (according to your math) of your normal damage for almost 30s.

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Less. We're decidedly less TP neutral, considering that our 3 highest priority attacks all drain TP, and this is exacerbated by every Straighter Shot proc we get. Further, there's no situation in which Foe's Requiem is going to lower the raid's single target damage. Do you even know what your own skills do? Unless you're using it with 0 casters attacking, it's going to be a strict damage increase. I also don't know why you think it takes 30 seconds to get enough TP to start using skills, especially if you're alleging that we're TP-neutral in the absence of SS. Get me about 200 TP, and I can make it last until Invigorate is up, even with skill speed.

I'm not going to try to argue that SS is great. It's clearly our least-valued stat. At the same time, if you're going to accuse someone of making bad arguments, don't do it by making arguments just as bad.

Now's probably a good time to mention that, at the same SS levels, Bards burn less TP/s than DRGs or MNKs.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Now's probably a good time to mention that, at the same SS levels, Bards burn less TP/s than DRGs or MNKs.

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Granted, but it's a big jump from that to the TP neutrality Tenkei was trying to claim.

Oh, that was so far out there I put it out of my mind.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

11% for ROB BL and ~16% for OGCDs. Specifically, ROB BL, BL, FA. I didn't include ME because it's extremely marginal (note: I do not include Mercy Stroke for other classes, either), or Repelling Shot, because you're kinda dumb if you use it, except maybe on Titan I guess.

What kind of idiot would stack 750 skill speed? You should be banned from the forums for suggesting it :\.

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You'd be stupid to use an ability that gives free damage and only requires you to take a couple steps towards the boss in between mechanics? Let me rephrase that for you, it would be stupid to NOT use repelling shot, with the exception of when you know you need it as an escape/defensive cd. Fights in this game are scripted, bosses use spells in a certain order with windows in between there's plenty of time to weave repelling in if you know the fights.

Also, I said 750 Skill speed because that's when it starts making a very noticeable difference in rotations, the fact of the matter is that the ~150 skill speed you might get off gear is inconsequential, think about it like haste from WoW (bad analogy since haste in WoW is infinitely more useful), when does it help you? At plateaus, .01 less GCD is NOT a Plateau, a Plateau is something like "ability to insert 1 more GCD skill in between X cooldown, or ability to insert an additional GCD between DoT refreshes." Think about it, Det effects 100% of our damage, Crit effects 100% of our damage, Skill Speed... does not...


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@ Viridiana, if you count invigorate we're TP neutral on single target. Also that was a copy/paste error on my part with the Foe Requiem I apologize, what I was trying to say is "Use Army's Paeon Dropping Foe Requiem" but I accidently went over part of that line while copy/pasting my message to get past the stupid 1k char limit. Think about it as all mana spent on AP is BETTER spent on FR. As for 30s, it's true that you can get around 200 TP and start using skills again, but if we are working under the assumption that because of your skill speed you drain TP faster than you recover it via Invig/natural regen, if you do not wait for your TP bar to completely refill you will find yourself back in the "0 tp" situation far faster (Especially if your DoTs have fallen off and you have to spend 160TP reapplying them). Essentially yes you could start using skills earlier if you want to run out of TP faster than before, but you'll most likely have to wait for your TP bar to completely fill before you are able to begin using skills/draining tp to begin the cycle again. Again all of this assumes minimal to no skill speed, the faster your GCD gets the faster you burn TP. Also keep in mind that Army's Paeon lowers your damage by 20% which further hurts the skill speed argument.

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Also, bards burn less TP thank Dragoons? Wrong again. I've never seen a dragoon go through TP as fast as my bard, because their rotation is based on consistent use of CHEAPER skills. Bard has Heavy Shot (60), Straight Shot (70), and DoTs (80/piece) Most of the commonly used Dragoon skills are 60 (Vorpal/Full/Chaos/Disem), or 70 (True/Impulse/Heavy) The only Drg commonly used skill which is 80 off the top of my head is fracture, and as I remember fracture is not only refreshed less often than bard DoTs, but not clipped/reapplied as much either. Finally Dragoons get additional TP regen from their invigorate over both monks and bards. Most of your assumptions about bard skill use, bard tp consumption, etc are based off a dps model which reflects a very poor level of play on the bard's part. I assure you even on as few as 2 targets, with invigorate a bard will run themselves completely out of TP assuming both targets live long enough, can the same be said of Dragoon?

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Originally Posted by Arale

I thought being able to move and use all of BRD's abilities made up for any downsides they have had or ever will have. xD

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Not all bard abilities can be used while moving. Songs have a cast time. I know you are thinking, "big whoop" but just clarifying for accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Tenkiei

You'd be stupid to use an ability that gives free damage and only requires you to take a couple steps towards the boss in between mechanics?

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So ... lemme get this straight. You want to spread rot to the mDPS? Ok ok, you're cool, I get it, you waited for the rot to pass twice, and you have an ace handle on the waves, and you got your eye to dodge the gravity wells, and you timed the laser.

Go for that 0.05% damage increase bro. We're all cheering for you.

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Also, I said 750 Skill speed because that's when it starts making a very noticeable difference in rotations, the fact of the matter is that the ~150 skill speed you might get off gear is inconsequential,

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Actually, I noticed a pretty big difference between low SS and 100 SS on my Dragoon. Must be a Bard thing. Sidenote: don't macro your on-GCD abilities.

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Think about it, Det effects 100% of our damage, Crit effects 100% of our damage, Skill Speed... does not...

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Skill speed affects a good fraction. The fact that it isn't great is why it results in a poor stat weight. But that stat weight is not 0.

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I've never seen a dragoon go through TP as fast as my bard, because their rotation is based on consistent use of CHEAPER skills. Bard has Heavy Shot (60), Straight Shot (70), and DoTs (80/piece) Most of the commonly used Dragoon skills are 60 (Vorpal/Full/Chaos/Disem), or 70 (True/Impulse/Heavy) The only Drg commonly used skill which is 80 off the top of my head is fracture,

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Lol I don't even use Fracture. In case you were ignorant, Dragoons have a DD+DOT called Phlebotomize that costs 90 TP. For reference, at 50ss a DRG burns 27.6 TP/s - 28.1 TP/s depending on what rotation they're using.

With the same SS, a BRD burns 27.0 TP/s.

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a bard will run themselves completely out of TP assuming both targets live long enough, can the same be said of Dragoon?

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Sure, if they both live long enough.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Yeah, I have autoattacks in a separate part of my model (they are included for stat weight calculations, but not when I did a quick/separate "what potency% of attacks were HS" calculation). I have, as a % of ability damage, dots (39%), SS/HS (47%), OGCDs (22%). Reducing those #s by a 29% AA contribution results in: dots (28%), SS/HS (34%), OGCDs (16%) (includes full flaming arrow).

But a 4x% number is more fun to wave around in a facetious post.

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So your modeling matches up similarly to my parses. I know you have weighted the stats, mind sharing a link? Realistically there is not much customization in stats, but I'd like to maximize what little control over them we have.

Just to interject a little tidbit that seems to be going overlooked:
Remember that endgame Bards should be keeping up Rain of Death (even on single target), which increases TP use by a decent amount (200TP every ~20 seconds) and is essentially a third DoT to keep track of.