When you mindlessly defend a game you hurt it. Some wisdom from a great.

"Everyone who dislikes your work is right.

This is the hardest pill to swallow. I’ve never gotten a piece of feedback that was wrong. You see, you can’t deny a player their unique experience. Whatever they felt, was true. For them. And something in your work triggered it.

It is useless, and worse, actually self-defeating, to attempt to deny the critique. Sure, there are sometimes reviews that seem spiteful, unfair, and the rest. But the vast majority of the time, people are giving their honest reaction.

And the bottom line is, you put the game out there in order to get reactions."

- From Ralph Koster's Blog.

White Knights, you are hurting the game, so from now on I will refer to you as Dark Knights since you are doing damage to the game when you try to defend it.

Sure. But the problem stems from various expectations. Lots of vocal "hardcores" feel the game should be playable 80+ a week but that game does not exist nor will it ever again.

I find what also hurts is when people are enjoying their experience with a game, but have to deal with constantly being told they are not really enjoying the game correctly...lol

Theres a difference between legitimate feedback and "THIS GAME IS STUPID!" type feedback, even if we are to believe your quote (from someone I don't know and don't care for) and that both types of criticism are legitimate.

Annoying when a lot of people are basically "The sky is green!." "No it's blue." "It's green you White Knight!." It's a difference of opinion that has sweet fa to do with Square yet some how i get labeled by that phrase 90% of the forum uses wrong in the first place.

His name is Raph. It's in the URL, even.

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Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin

White Knights, you are hurting the game, so from now on I will refer to you as Dark Knights since you are doing damage to the game when you try to defend it.

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So...out of curiosity...does that make you a "White Knight"?

Only problem is half of the criticism has no worth as all it ends up being is a statement of how much they hate a feature and nowhere do they put how they think it could be done better. So just because a statement is critical does not always make it useful to developers.

And those that mindlessly criticize also hurt it. There's a lot of conflicting criticism from people trying to pull it their way (which go both ways on the same issue), the defenders are those that like it how it is.

Yes your right, but how do you tell apart those who mindlessly do it from those that simply disagree with you?

I would also like to point out if the idea is that on threads that are critical of an issue should not have people go on and defend said issue I would also request that when somebody posts a positive thread that those who are under a perpetual rain cloud not go in to post on those threads as there is no reason to post on those threads as there probably is already a thread describing their issue.

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Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin

"Everyone who dislikes your work is right.

This is the hardest pill to swallow. I’ve never gotten a piece of feedback that was wrong. You see, you can’t deny a player their unique experience. Whatever they felt, was true. For them. And something in your work triggered it.

It is useless, and worse, actually self-defeating, to attempt to deny the critique. Sure, there are sometimes reviews that seem spiteful, unfair, and the rest. But the vast majority of the time, people are giving their honest reaction.

And the bottom line is, you put the game out there in order to get reactions."

- From Ralph Koster's Blog.

White Knights, you are hurting the game, so from now on I will refer to you as Dark Knights since you are doing damage to the game when you try to defend it.

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Maybe you should try to read your own words more proficiently (or quoted words, whatever). Just because a snippet of criticism is true "for someone" (as you say yourself) does not mean it is true for everyone else. For instance, just because some people loathe fates, does not mean that criticism is true for everyone, and thus, what you call "white knighting" is simply a person's individual right to defend their own beliefs. If you think that is hurting the game then I don't what to tell you other than that you're wrong.

Any feedback that comes with suggestions for improvement is awesome.

This is 90% of the problem with feedback threads. 9/10 times I see:

"OMFG THIS GAME SUX THIS IS BROKEN THAT IS BROKEN I QUIT YOU SHOULD
ALL QUIT TOO THIS GAME IS DEAD!!!111"

That's it. No suggestions, no ideas, nothing. Just rage rage rage in a feedback
thread.

I agree with the sentiment that "everyone is right" when it comes to their own unique experience within a game but they almost always fail in the presentation of their grievance. Sadly it's just a testament to the current notion that YOUR feelings and needs should trump others and you shouldn't have to accept less than what you feel you deserve. You see this every day starting at the fact that there are 36456776544 threads about the same topic and continuing with the acceptance of unwarranted attacks against persons with genuine questions or opinions. Rare is it to see a civil debate on any issues related to our experiences or "flaws" within the game. Instead, people often fall back on insults and bandwagon terms like white knight when someone disagrees with them.

My Criticism to the OP:

http://youtu.be/V3y3QoFnqZc


And thus, I create a paradox!

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Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin

"Everyone who dislikes your work is right.

This is the hardest pill to swallow. I’ve never gotten a piece of feedback that was wrong. You see, you can’t deny a player their unique experience. Whatever they felt, was true. For them. And something in your work triggered it.


- From Ralph Koster's Blog.

White Knights, you are hurting the game, so from now on I will refer to you as Dark Knights since you are doing damage to the game when you try to defend it.

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well, i'd say you're the dark knight for calling people white knights. I see very little mindless defense on these boards- most people who defend something have reasonably well thought out posts. There's a difference between mindless defense and supporting with a coherent argument. But most people like you brand anyone who defends anything a white knight regardless.

also "everyone who dislikes your work is right "is bullcrap. Nothing can appeal to everybody. just because someone doesn't like something, doesn't make that thing inherently defective. I think that the mona lisa is an ugly piece of artwork. Does that make me right? No. It's still a valuable peice of art history. I might not like it but that doesn't make it defective/bad/inferior.

Also: I agree that feedback with no constructive elements is worthless. Too many people hate on things but offer up no reasonable explanation for it. Without any advice to what could be done better, your feedback has no meaning because it doesn't help them improve.

lots of dark knights here

Yay, Dark Knight has always been my favorite job :D

And honestly, I really disagree with your interpretation of 'everyone who dislikes your work is right.' It's just like the saying 'the customer is always right.' Neither one of them are true except in a philosophical or theoretical sense. Unfortunately, as much as some intellectuals want to live solely in a theoretical or philosophical world, this is reality.

Yeah, everyone's experience is true for them, but if everyone's experience is also true and different from everyone else's then that also means that everyone's experience is false :p

Actually this is far better to get the point across:

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People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is. Especially watch out for the ones who tell you that nobody understands your genius.

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But I have to agree, the term white knight has been thrown around a lot in the past couple weeks. Truth be told anyone who takes the time to respond to a I quit thread or legit troubles with the game with a response that leans towards saying it's not SE's fault, is white knighting. Because like it or not it is indeed SE's fault for not providing a game for that person to like. But it's not SE's problem because it is impossible to provide a game that everyone will like. Human nature forbids the possibility.

What if we flip the quote on it's head?

"Everyone who likes your work is right."

What about the "unique experiences" of those who like the game? Don't they count? Aren't you hurting the game by trying to change what others like? You should think before you post biased crap. :P

But... what if im legitimately happy with the game in general? Despite all the flaws you seem to be hinting at?


Not my fault a bunch of you rushed to 50 in 3 days and now bored out of your mind. Ive got a 30 gld i just turned pld and 24 arm. And im PERFECTLY happy doing what im doing now.

Please go play wow now, please, you will be doing us all a favor.

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Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin

I’ve never gotten a piece of feedback that was wrong.

White Knights, you are hurting the game, so from now on I will refer to you as Dark Knights since you are doing damage to the game when you try to defend it.

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Read: Good feedback is detailed.

90% of the complaints not only lack sufficient detail to be worth a grain of salt, but are erratic in how they are conveyed.

Show me solid feedback on a single subject, and not a laundry-list of one-liners, and I would be happy to debate its viability.

I find myself really enjoying the game, but I have to laugh when I see someone retort on a criticism thread w/ 'Well, that just your opinion!!'

No, really? ANY feedback is an opinion. However it is the culmination of those playing and those quitting over various issues that will steer issues, not one in particular.

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Originally Posted by Paddycakes

But... what if im legitimately happy with the game in general? Despite all the flaws you seem to be hinting at?


Not my fault a bunch of you rushed to 50 in 3 days and now bored out of your mind. Ive got a 30 gld i just turned pld and 24 arm. And im PERFECTLY happy doing what im doing now.

Please go play wow now, please, you will be doing us all a favor.

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if your playing at your own pace then why the heck should you be here throwing your 2 cents in. then just play the game at your place and ignore us people that are bored outa our minds because the so called endgame content at launch was easier than hellokitty online. A lot of us have all classes capped from 1.0 there is hardly any content for us to do besides farm seals for 1 day then spam coil.

How can there be 11 likes of this post:

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Originally Posted by DokutoruGwydion

Theres a difference between legitimate feedback and "THIS GAME IS STUPID!" type feedback, even if we are to believe your quote (from someone I don't know and don't care for) and that both types of criticism are legitimate.

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Seriously?! It's OK not to know everyone that matters, but stating that you "don't care for" that person without even knowing who the hell he/she is... it speaks volumes of closed-mindedness. No wonder such a rigid approach is mind-numbingly oblivious to the deeper meaning of the quote then; basically replying to the idea that "any criticism holds some inherent legitimacy in the name of subjectivity" by saying "no, because some is not legitimate". -_-' Sometimes, discussing on this forum feels like talking to a wall waiting for an inspiring counter-argument → not going to happen. Unfortunately.

For your information, Raphael "Raph" Koster (born September 7, 1971) is an American entrepreneur, game designer, and author of A Theory of Fun for Game Design. Koster is widely recognized for his work as the lead designer of Ultima Online and the creative director behind Star Wars Galaxies. (Source: Wikipedia)

Nope. Nothing good comes out of feedback like "this game sux i hate it i quit and everyone else that enjoys this game are retarded fanbois". People that defend those kind of threads are not wrong and are not hurting anyone.

Constructive criticism on the other hand, is valid and should be respected. I won't think negatively of someone that explains why they don't like the game without being hostile or offensive towards people who disagree.

There's a massive difference between honest feedback (which should never appear in General to begin with) and idiots mindlessly ranting in a /ragefest because they lack perspective on life.

The former is helpful to SE, though it is their right to dismiss it. The latter is rightfully dismissed as the ramblings of spoiled brats, angry that the world can't cater to them and only them.

Edit: I know that philosophically speaking, criticism can't be disregarded or considered wrong. That said, the same principle can be applied when dealing with a screaming child who wants to have a cookie before dinner. Adults rightly tell them no, and that they can scream all they want, but it won't get them anywhere. SE in this situation, and, I suspect, the vast majority of adults who peruse these forums, dismiss childish rageposts for precisely this reason. A valid complaint from an immature individual does not equate to us being obligated or best-served by listening.

so you think your opinion is better than mine i have two words for you mr expert Grow Up!

i expect 10 year olds to stoop to name calling and get upset when others don't agree with them this is nothing new and neither are you and this thread.

ONE THING CONSTANT IS PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT EVERYTHING , EVEN THOSE WHO DO NOT SHARE THEIR VIEWS !

^ Every MMO is full of Complainers , who none stop write thread after thread about every issue they can think of or make up .

Criticism is Good , none stop "If I cannot have it my way" blah blah "I am going to quit" blah Blah " RAGGGGGGE" is nothing to be supported or good for any game !:cool:

edit:

White Knight is the most short minded insult to ever grace any Forum , I do not know to either take out my shield and sword and get ready to pull agro or laugh at it........

Carebear , Kid , UMADBRAH , BADDIE , ..............now White Knight ................lol
I remember when Nerd was used to attack people in UO and FF11 .........

Insults are a sign of rage .........and being wrong.

If you say "This feature of the game should change." and I reply "I like it as is, I don't think it should." That is just as valid.

If complaints are always valid, they would always be worth getting things changed. Once changed, assuming the feature in the game had people who liked it, they will complain that it should be reverted. Based solely off you argument their complaint to revert the feature would be completely valid, and any attempt to tell them the change was good would be white knighting.

Not all complaints should be listened to. People telling you they do not like your idea is not white knighting, they are just defending a feature they like as is. It's up to the devs if a complaint is valid, and they should have access to all views both for and against the change.

This forum is like 90% negative threads, so it's not clear what OP is talking about.

Since we are throwing around famous quotes, here is some food for thought.

“If you never change your mind, why have one?” - Edward de Bono

I think this goes for both groups of people.

As soon as I read your comment about calling people "White knights" I was done with this thread. You sir, are bringing your point across the wrong way.

Ignoring your community is obviously a bad idea but mjndlessly doing everything they ask because its "feedback" is even worse. If it werent for the "white knights" how could it be possible to tell the difference between legit info and utter trash? Guaranteeing that 90% of feedback is garbage, at least "white knights" have the sense to recognize a legitimate idea.

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Originally Posted by PsychologyPhD

Since we are throwing around famous quotes, here is some food for thought.

“If you never change your mind, why have one?” - Edward de Bono

I think this goes for both groups of people.

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why change your mind if its already happy?

So, I enjoy the game, am therefore defending the game, am therefore a dark knight?

Honestly if I don't like something I do not have to come up with a solution. Its not my job, Square-Enix is not paying me to do so.

But Aleksandr how will Square-Enix make the game you like without telling them? It is not like they have a magic crystal ball or are mind readers!

Games do it all the time, before MMOs were created, after MMOs created, people had ideas and made plenty of games without my input. They even built an entire gaming industry behind it. Now if Square-Enix wants to hire me to be a game designer then yes I have a ton of ideas and ways I would like to see the game improved to make them a lot of money. Some you may even enjoy.

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Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin

Sure, there are sometimes reviews that seem spiteful, unfair, and the rest. But the vast majority of the time, people are giving their honest reaction.

White Knights, you are hurting the game, so from now on I will refer to you as Dark Knights since you are doing damage to the game when you try to defend it.

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people have defrent opinions and difrent taste for gender of games if its western or not that fact they you and many others dont like the game how it is atm doesnt mean its bad it jsut means you or who ever dislikes the game should stop crying and move on to another game

i have done it with other games i feel buggy or the mechanics feel wrong, i just leave the game and look for something better no game is perfect and no game will ever come to be perfect learn to live with it or just be quiet

and who is this Ralph Koster? nobody just like you and me deal with it

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

How can there be 11 likes of this post:


Seriously?! It's OK not to know everyone that matters, but stating that you "don't care for" that person without even knowing who the hell he/she is... it speaks volumes of closed-mindedness. No wonder such a rigid approach is mind-numbingly oblivious to the deeper meaning of the quote then; basically replying to the idea that "any criticism holds some inherent legitimacy in the name of subjectivity" by saying "no, because some is not legitimate". -_-' Sometimes, discussing on this forum feels like talking to a wall waiting for an inspiring counter-argument → not going to happen. Unfortunately.

For your information, Raphael "Raph" Koster (born September 7, 1971) is an American entrepreneur, game designer, and author of A Theory of Fun for Game Design. Koster is widely recognized for his work as the lead designer of Ultima Online and the creative director behind Star Wars Galaxies. (Source: Wikipedia)

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he helped in 2 horrible games ... whats your point hes nobody

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who is this Ralph Koster?

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apparently according to einstein jr he is the greatest thing since snausages and chocolate covered ants.

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Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin

"Everyone who dislikes your work is right.

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*Smirks*

Great point... and while I agree with some elements of the blog's article, some other points are just hopelessly flawed in their reasonsing. Nonetheless, great read. However, try sitting in on an architectural presentation before a tough jury of renown architects.

I dare you.

People will defend something even if it is bad, because they are invested in it, they believe the hype, PR and Developers, they will not agree there are problems in said game because they do not see them as problems and see feedback as attacking what they love, such as it is..

You will never get these so called white knight players to agree there are problems because they choose to not see said problems..or are willing to overlook them..

Honestly this game is a mess and not even good enough to be called Final fantasy imo, but hey if they are so invested in a linear WoW, L2, random Korean Grindfest clone with a Final fantasy tag on it awesome for them...i guess..