Is it possible to keep the Hardcore appeased?

I've not had time for an mmo for a few years, but back in 2005 I got heavily into the first Guild Wars. I spent upwards of 10 hours a day playing for around 3 years, and was massively involved in all aspects of the community (even so far as becoming a forum moderator on the game's largest online community - GWG).

Every time the game released new pve content, we would clear it in next to no time. We'd amass a fortune in new gear, have more platinum than we knew what to do with, and grow tired of the endless repetition.

We had a mixed guild, one of the largest in the game, and many of our players were what you'd deem casual - they put in a few hours a night at most, some played more for the social aspects than aiming for prestige, and many found the type of content we breezed through as too much of a challenge or bother.

The fact is, these people and the "midcore" types who engaged in end-game but at much less of a rate than the hardcore of us, they constantly had a plethora of content they'd yet to exhaust. The game still felt massive to them, like they always had something they could do.

The hardcore players had every peice of content exhausted before these guys had even thought about engaging with it. The gameworld felt tiny, and boxed in.

It was impossible for the developers to keep up with us. And through our own insistence to complete the content as soon as it was available, which was a symptom of our hardcore playstyle, we grew bored and complained and called to the devs to engage us more.

We waited impatiently between content updates and amused ourselves by creating farming builds and finding faster and faster ways to clear end game content, but we were always restless and bugging the devs to hurry up with updates to keep us amused.

Now, I'm approaching this game from a "midcore" mindset and the game world feels large. I have a lot to look forward to, and I aim to level multiple classes and professions. I know I have a lot of gametime ahead of me, and I have faith the devs will balance out certain content (ie: dungeons) to make FATE grinding less essential, so I see my future with this game as an enjoyable one that never hits that hardcore wall.


To the hardcore players here: do you feel boxed in currently by a lack of content? Do you feel the current endgame challenge is a good way to keep you interested, or just a mindless treadmill? Do you think it's even possible to keep hardcore mmo PVE players truly appeased, or do you think they'll always hit these kind of walls?

Does ARR do it better than most? Is it heading in the right direction?

I'm curious what the hardcore players think about this as I doubt very much I'll ever engage with this game in that way due to real world commitments.
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I've very much like to keep debates of Hardcore versus Casual and all that negative stuff out of this thread. If that's what you want to do, feel free to create another thread to use.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Short answer:
Also, you can just edit your first post to work around the 1000 character limit.

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You're a lifesaver, thanks!

Short answer:

No.

Long answer:

LOL! No. You'll never appease hardcore gamers.

Also, you can just edit your first post to work around the 1000 character limit.

Yeah no, there is no way to appease people who burn through content ASAP and to be honest, they're not the bulk of players. You want to appeal to a wide base so as to maintain a high number of subscriptions. It's the same reason SE doesn't focus all of their efforts on roleplayers.

Playing a game in a hardcore manner is incredibly unhealthy and I really don't understand why somebody would want to. The only reason would be to prove you are better than someone else which is a sign of insecurity. I do understand that some people see that as fun or an accomplishment but it is just a game and the satisfaction that you do get would never be equal to any satisfaction you get from life outside of a game. Given the time it takes to create any game content, hardcore players will never be satisfied.

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Originally Posted by Kyriea

Playing a game in a hardcore manner is incredibly unhealthy and I really don't understand why somebody would want to. The only reason would be to prove you are better than someone else which is a sign of insecurity. I do understand that some people see that as fun or an accomplishment but it is just a game and the satisfaction that you do get would never be equal to any satisfaction you get from life outside of a game. Given the time it takes to create any game content, hardcore players will never be satisfied.

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I asked kindly to keep this kind of post away. There is nothing wrong with the hardcore playstyle, it's a choice people make and who are you to call it unhealthy or talk down to them for it?

If you'd like to debate this, feel free to PM me, but please can we keep this aspect of it out of the discussion?

Thanks.

Somewhere along the way mmo's forgot what they were meant to be and instead adopted single player mechanics(repeat the same content over and over). I'd love for the main emphasis to go back to just existing in an online fantasy setting and having fun with friends.

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Originally Posted by Kyriea

Playing a game in a hardcore manner is incredibly unhealthy and I really don't understand why somebody would want to. The only reason would be to prove you are better than someone else which is a sign of insecurity. I do understand that some people see that as fun or an accomplishment but it is just a game and the satisfaction that you do get would never be equal to any satisfaction you get from life outside of a game. Given the time it takes to create any game content, hardcore players will never be satisfied.

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Some people find being the first to do something fun.

I know that it may be a foreign concept that certain people don't share your exact vision on what is fun and what is not, but there it is.

Most logical hardcore players I know are perfectly accepting that most MMOs don't have the longevity that the playstyle requires, don't tar all hardcore players with the same brush because there's a vocal group on these forums. The mass majority of real hardcore players are attempting to clear turn 5.

I am a former "hard core" player in games like Everquest 1 (10 years), Rift, ToR, GWII (Titan Alliance). I have read countless threads in reguards to content and hardcore players. This time when FFXIV ARR launched I told myself I wasn't going to ruin the game this time, and not worry about what everyone else was doing, and play the game to have fun. I suppose you could consider me Mid-core sliding more to casual, but I have a group of friends that are all like minded and we still accomplish things.

I can say that it gets tiring, and the stress of worrying about OMG we need to grind MOAR to beat X guild in doing Y bleeds over into "this and that sucks and is not viable threads" always comparing everything to the most efficient easy example to compare it with. I can say that not feeling this way and saying F-that I want to play a game this time not have a tournament with the rest of the world has made the experience a hell of a lot more enjoyable in my opinion. A side effect of my new attitude for the launch of this game is that I feel like there are tons of content if I am willing to do it.

I still do all the primals every day they are so much fun, help folks asking for relic weapon boss fights like chimera or hydra these are fun as well, AK "could be a little harder", slacked off CM " a little redundant", I also queue for the lower dungeons as well for fun, as I didn't FATE grind to 50 I quested and chain queued dungeons I think they are pretty cool. Waiting on the rest of my free company mates to finish up their DL and relics and we will start coil and the new Crystal Tower. I am having a lot of fun and play hours everyday.

Content takes longer to make than to consume, you will always run into this same problem until someone figures out how to deal with it.

The thing you mentioned about efficiency is exactly what is happening now. Finding faster and faster ways to do things. FATE leveling, SRs, running past mobs, overgearing, etc.

Wasn't slamming hardcore players at all I just don't understand it and for a game it is unhealthy simply because from a developer point of view they cannot possibly create enough content. It is not possible to keep hardcore players happy because it takes a very long time to create content. Coming from an animation background working alongside game programmers etc they will most likely be working flat-out for 3 months to create the content you'll get every 3 months.

It's the reason a lot of companies set targets that might not seem that big to players and by the time the 3 months is up and the content is due out they haven't perfected as much as they'd have liked and post-pone release. What might seem like a small amount of content takes a lot longer than people imagine.

And it is true, there are people who play this game to replace life but that will never be the case. You cannot make a game as good as life so they will be disappointed.

FFXIV is unfortunately, a very casual game, and nothing will ever change that.

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Originally Posted by Tooth

FFXIV is unfortunately, a very casual game, and nothing will ever change that.

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Without bashing player's personal preferences...

Why is this a bad thing?

How could the game cater better for Hardcore players?

How did previous games you've played do this better?

You'll have to wait till more content comes out for it to even appeal to hardcore gamers, finishing turn 1-4 within 40 minutes doesn't seem that would appease them. Also this game just came out. I for one am excited for the new content.

I think you can appease hardcore players -- but I do not think you can appease hardcore players who have a narrow scope of what they want from a game (if they even know what they want from a game). The latter is the type of player who comes to the forums complaining about this or that or them.

I think any hardcore player ('hardcore' in the truest sense) will always find new goals to set themselves within the game, or are hardcore because they enjoy the game and are not easily dissuaded from it as the 'other' type of hardcore players are. Clearing every dungeon and amassing an armory of all the best equipment (to me) does not mean that person is hardcore -- this type of player generally does not enjoy the process that went behind the acquisition of the gear and will eventually quit to do the same in the next MMO release.

True hardcore players are the people online six, twelve, eighteen months later still tearing the content a new one and contributing positively to the community.

I think it depends somewhat on whether hardcore is measured in hours played, or a specific need to be on the bleeding edge for progression/gear/etc.

For the latter, I don't think this game is really focused (or if it is, it's not really succeeding) at providing a significant challenge hardcore players. If you're singularly focused on getting gear and progressing, the content is definitely lacking at the moment. I think even most "mid core" players could have cleared it all by now if they dedicated themselves to it.

However, in terms of hours and "general stuff to do", I think the game is in a good place for launch. It has some flaws, but has kept my attention easily playing 5-7 hours per day with my significant other after work as our main hobby, and only now after a month are we generally looking into "real" end game progression. The rest has gone into alts (for cross class skills), crafting, gathering, and helping to gear up FCmates as they reach 50.

Very hard to keep making content for people who play 10+ hours a day.

I think arr/YoshiP is looking at it right.All new content is going to be hard or harder for hardcore ppl to get new set of gear or weapons then,then later on use the echo system to let midcore/casual player take part it in.

I for one love hardcore gamer they give me a chance to see ingame gear and say "oh dam that item looks sweet" give me something to to work toward.But i dont like the fact that when there done some off them cry out for more content and the hasnt even been out for a year.

I remember ffxi my first 75 took me just about a year.What ever happen to those good times in gaming/mmo, i know the casaul player wanting to be like th hardcore with less effort they should make most new age mmos like it was in the 1st 5 years in FFXI,letting players earn there way to the top.(At least by then they would know how to play the job).

Oh that note play the game the way u like,dont jump on the hype train for new content let Yoshi and crew put out great content.

What is there to appease? Hardcore player will extract what they want from the game content and be "done" with it once they felt they've experienced everything the game has to offer and moves on. Part of the appeal for the play style is to experience as much content in as efficient a way as possible allowing you to get the most, by their definition, out of each game. And if the developer happen to create content that might interest them again, they'll come back and rush through those in the same manner as well. I guess from the company's perspective, this is not what they want to happen because these player won't be paying monthly fee in a consistent manner which pretty much has nothing to do with the players. Let the companies running the games find their own way to solve their problems I say and perhaps one day we'll see MMOs that are designed to get around it, which, judging from its content, FFXIV isn't designed to do.

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online game.

By definition, it's meant for the masses. You play 10 hours a day? The mass doesn't, you're screwed. Complain as much as you want, you're still screwed. Try to gather people like you to make you point appear more appreciated? Won't work, you're part of a very small minority. Whatever you try, your playstyle is screwed. Change it and have fun, move along and do something else or be forever displeased with upcoming games.

No sane person will ever develop a MMO for players who play 10 hours a day for 3 years. Every unique dungeon which could be completed in an hour takes months to build. So let say 10 unique dungeons a day = about a year a work (assuming there is few elements reused). A year of developer work for a day in the life of a no-life rusher.

So 10 hours par day for 3 years, there are 365 days a year, so 1095 days in 3 years. Therefore, it would take like 1095 years to build a MMO to satisfy a no-life rusher for 3 years.

I feel as though there isn't that much content end game and that it is a treadmill. I do think that if pvp were in the game, it would greatly side track a lot of us burning through the content. My average day (If I log in outside of a raid day) is to get on and farm and then hope that the items I farm will even sell, since everybody undercuts by huge amounts I really don't ever sell. Then I'll grind my AK's for myth, then use the philo to gear my second lvl 50. But pretty much it's a waiting game for me at this point for resets.

In the end, it is pretty much impossible to appease the hardcore crowd. Between level design, mechanics and art, it takes longer to develop content than it does to complete it. Even if a game launched with 6 months worth of content at a hardcore pace and still have more content being developed, there will hit a breaking point in which the hardcore players will have caught up to what has been released.

The only ways to try control this is through ramped up difficulty or artificial limitations. With ramping up the difficulty to slow down player progression, the company would be spending money developing content for a tiny percentage of the overall consumer base, which no company in their right mind would do. With artificial limitations (such as the fatigue system at the launch of 1.0, mythology tome caps of arr, or the Japanese midnight wait periods that XI had) you end up potentially angering the customers or even hindering the more casual players. In the end, it's really a no-win situation to try to keep the hardcore crowd appeased.

As long as people can complain , whine , cry , rage , throw fits , and stress a BS Opinion ............They will do it on every issue possible and no Fix or adjustment will ever make them happy........

I would not call them HardCore because they say they want something Harder or more Grindy , at one point or another they were complaining about "How Hard or Grindy" something is till they pasted it , then it becomes "OMG this is too easy" or "Not enough Grind" ........

Real Hardcore Games come in , Max out the game , and leave till new content or never come back because it did not fill their enjoyment for flash and blingbling or Competition .

We all have to understand , Titan will not be hard forever , lots of people are beating it and getting their Relics Finished , and those who can't are buying their cheap win because there are people in this world unable to do anything for themselves ............

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Originally Posted by LloydShade

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online game.

By definition, it's meant for the masses. You play 10 hours a day? The mass doesn't, you're screwed. Complain as much as you want, you're still screwed. Try to gather people like you to make you point appear more appreciated? Won't work, you're part of a very small minority. Whatever you try, your playstyle is screwed. Change it and have fun, move along and do something else or be forever displeased with upcoming games.

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Actually, the definition is that there are massive amounts of people playing online. It was never meant for the "mass", until recently.

I don't consider myself Hardcore, but then I do spent my free time (which is occasionally considerable) online.
I have 2 classes to 50, both of which have completed their Relic (Bard and Warrior), I'm working on Scholar and have at least the titan weapon to level in to.
I have spent a fair bit of time with Gathering Classes, and understand Crafting (although in general the system doesn't appeal to me that much)
I feel that I have Amdapor, Ifrit HM, Garuda HM and Titan HM on farm

The only content I haven't touched yet is Binding Coil. I don't imagine it would take that long for me to learn the concepts unless I tried to go in with 7 other players who hadn't experienced it, hadn't read about it, and didn't want to go look things up and we tried to learn it from scratch. Although because of the way lock-out works we could try until we ran out of $$ to learn this way if we wanted, and then have them on farm (Turn 1-4) in a few weeks time even without it.

I didn't do a lot of Fate Grinding for any one of my classes, I prefered to go with dungeons / combat-leves just because FATEs make me go cross eyed only a slight bit slower than Castrum.

All that being said, yes I think the game is pretty small. I would have been happy if leveling took a little longer, and gear was... more important to being prepared for dungeon content than it currently is.