First, Provoke itself only generates 1 enmity if you use it while you're target's target, and only generates one enmity when using it for pulling.
However, if you are not the target's target, and someone else is, provoke matches you to the enmity level of the highest person in the party. If I'm stunbotting Ifrit (expression) and I provoke him, it matches me to the MT's enmity. If the MT just died, it matches me to whoever is next.
In many situations, following this with a Shield Lob or Tomahawk (ranged attacks for tanks) is enough to create enough enmity for the target to get to you and for you to establish.
However, high healing situations, such as picking up an add on Garuda HM, where medica and medica 2's and regens galore are producing a lot of enmity can be rough to pick up a mob from.
Is it necessary?
No, it's not necessary, few things actually are, but they would make important tasks a bit easier, and easier on one person = easier on the group.
Could it be "abused"? It could be manipulated for advantage early in the fight, OT provokes, MT provokes for a small threat lead, but really, it wouldn't be a great gain. Things could be made provoke-immune for even 5 seconds after being provoked and the ability to abuse this would fly out the window.
My suggestion? Make it equal to our defense. My defense is 732 without protect. Make Provoke generate 732 * (enmity modifier of Shield Oath/Defiance (if they're up))
So, if a tank used Provoke to pull, he'd get 732 * eMod on the target he provoked.
If a tank used Provoke to pull off another player, he'd get that persons hate + (732 * emod)
If a tank used Provoke on a target he was already tanking, he'd get 0 (or 1, whatever) hate.
A better geared tank would get more out of provoke than I would. A worse geared tank would get less, and that gives us an ability with that scales with our gear.
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10-13-2013, 04:54 PMSteeledPetition to add a small "chunk" of enmity to provoke, when used as designed
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10-13-2013, 05:09 PMKewitt
I would love this. As a warrior that uses Provoke in a panic, Then needing to spam hate move doesn't always get hate, normally because the person with hate is doing something to get hate, and they don't stop when provoke happens.
I would also take any kind of enmity + gear -
10-13-2013, 05:59 PMZfz
I wouldn't mind if enmity mechanism is modified to add the aggro thresholds as in World of Warcraft. It would be a vast quality of life improvement for tanks.
At the moment Provoke is virtually useless without a follow up. That means it takes at least 1 GCD to use provoke properly. With a lot of targets who stop to cast AoE or just plain get stuck for a second or two, it takes even more GCDs to get a hold of the target. Either that, or the tank has to move and break formation. With a aggro threshold (e.g. 110% for melee, 130% for ranged) a single provoke should last long enough for the target to finally approach tanking range.
Of course, I'm not saying that the current way of "DDs need to L2P" is bad. I don't mind that. I'm just very tired of teaching all the DDers how to play. orz -
10-13-2013, 06:35 PMSteeled
The other advantage to implementing as I suggest is that it doesn't actually change tanking as a whole. If you can't hold boss-hate off random bard, this isn't really going to help you. You can get a threat lead at the beginning, but it's less than an enmity combo, so it's 2 or 3 GCDs lead. If you can't outpace someone on hate, they'll catch you a few seconds later, and so you would still need to work on that.
However if you just need a quick boost at the very beginning of an add pickup, this could easily give you that. -
10-13-2013, 06:38 PMPathetic
Why can't they make target being provoke must attack the provoker for 10 sec regardless whoever got highest enmity.
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10-13-2013, 07:26 PMMetabug5 seconds would be more than enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pathetic
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10-13-2013, 09:05 PMEdenholt
in RIFT the provoke skill bind the target to the tank for 3sec only, 5sec here (considering how slow the mobs move!) would be more enough to improve the QoL.
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10-14-2013, 03:39 AMSteeledQuote:
Originally Posted by Pathetic
I like the idea of 5 seconds. Some people might feel like 10 seconds is too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metabug
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10-14-2013, 03:44 AMMeklore
I'm of the opinion that Provoke was designed the way it's working, it forces players to manage their enmity against the mob.
Parties are supposed to be a team effort and everybody need to know what their enmity threshold is and keep it below the tanks.
If Provoke gave tanks extra enmity there would be no reason to manage it in a fight.
We have a lot of enmity generating moves as it is currently.
Just my 2gil. -
10-14-2013, 03:45 AMAleksandrWho are these 'some people'? The people against the MT being hit by the enemy? Those are the monsters who are trying to get past the tank and eat us up. Their opinions do not count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeled
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10-14-2013, 03:46 AMGyrus
YYEAH!!! And instant cast spells should be...
INSTANT -
10-14-2013, 04:01 AMTeleniel
Honestly I don't have a problem with provoke giving me 1 more enmity than the person who was the target... that works well enough most times, although enemies .... deciding very slowly if they're going to come back to me after Provoke + Tomahawk is very frustrating. It means I can't flash/overpower to further set a bit more hate on the target without wasting even more time getting it back.
Now how often is this really a problem? The less your DPS/Healers out-gear you, and the more they watch the enmity meters, the less of a chance you need to use it in the first place.
All that being said, I would love to see provoke have a two-part change...
1: Once you provoke a target, it won't attack anyone else for 10 seconds (great right?)
2: If you are not at the top of the target's hate list after those 10 seconds the enmity gained from provoke is lost.
in 4 man content this would make Provoke something that your team has to look out for, or be sure they want to tank that target, potentially until it's dead.
in 8 man content this would allow off-tanks to hold a target for a short time to give the main tank a bit of breathing space. And they could either go Enmity-Combo and main tank (as they can now), or Support-Combo and they will only have the target for a few attack rounds. -
10-14-2013, 04:05 AMDoctorMog
Provoke -> Shield Lob / Circle of Scorn / Spirits Within
Should work fine, back on top of threat.
No need to change Provoke.
Use the rest of your tools Paladins!
(Well, unless your DD continues to DPS after taking aggro. In which case you need new DD because they are bad. Not a redesign of Provoke) -
10-14-2013, 04:11 AMDjeseritThere's a difference between instant cast and instant effects. Everything instant cast is exactly that, cast instantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrus
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10-14-2013, 04:36 AMGyrusnot true, there is a delay in this so called instantQuote:
Originally Posted by Djeserit
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10-14-2013, 04:59 AMSteeled(Speaking exclusively for add pickup in healing intensive fights) Not true actually. Because of the mechanics of provoke currently and that overheals count for full enmity, the more geared a healer is, really regardless of the tanks gear, the harder it becomes to pickup the add off him. With lesser geared healers, you might get hate by savage blade. With more geared healers, you may have to Rage of Halone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleniel
"Some people" don't want tanking made easy. 10 seconds is a long time to establish hate in the scheme of things. Some people might feel that 10 seconds is too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksandr
5, however, sounds perfect. It gets the mob to stand still for a second while you go about getting things done.