Summoner

Please give summoner some other kind of edge because as it stands at present people only want BLM and Bards for coil and it's becoming increasingly difficult as more and more people roll bards

Summoner does have the edge, and especially over BLM.

Bard nerfs are expected incoming in the next patch, most likely it will happen. So you will see a drop on Bard and a raise on whatever class be FOTM.

I do hope so. Especially Bards. A support class with absurd dps. They should give bard more utility less dps and none stack able songs

Wait what?
The highest dps in game, that is semi mobile unlike BLM and has combat rez which only healers have besides you, needs an edge and is not wanted for Coil?

Not sure which game you playing, afaik the only reason someone'd want bard over SMN is the silence/songs and a BLM is just a sad 3rd.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Wait what?
The highest dps in game, that is semi mobile unlike BLM and has combat rez which only healers have besides you, needs an edge and is not wanted for Coil?

Not sure which game you playing, afaik the only reason someone'd want bard over SMN is the silence/songs and a BLM is just a sad 3rd.

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qft

SMN : battle rez + virus + eye for eye + crappy heals (but hey! ) , dots (with debuffs included) and pet dmg , instant nuke (ruinII , fester (cd and need dots)) ,AOE LB

what that support class u are talking about? i only see tank dps healer as roles Oo?

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

qft

SMN : battle rez + virus + eye for eye + crappy heals (but hey! ) , dots (with debuffs included) and pet dmg , instant nuke (ruinII , fester (cd and need dots)) ,AOE LB

what that support class u are talking about? i only see tank dps healer as roles Oo?

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Dot debuffs that bosses are immune to, and ruin II does half the damage of a scathe and costs a metric crapton of mana.

Hello my summoner brothers. I agree that Summoners are very good as well.

Just want to defend Black Mages a bit here. It's impossible to compare the damage between the two classes right now.

It's been discussed Ad Nauseam.

From personal experience (I have never run with a summoner in +1 relic), I believe summoner DPS is on par with Black Mage DPS all things being equal. They may edge us out a tiny bit in AOE and we may edge out a bit in single target.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Dot debuffs that bosses are immune to, and ruin II does half the damage of a scathe and costs a metric crapton of mana.

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which bosses are immune to our dots? ifrit not, garuda not, titan not, turn 1 not, turn 2 not, turn 3 not, turn 4 not. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

ruin is supposed to be low damage, imagine ruin II with double it's current damage, it'll be 380-400 per hit, while your dots tick 350-400, your pets hit 190-200. that's 1000 damage every 3 seconds (NON CRIT) and without fester, do you understand how OP that will be? even now when ruin II on it's current state, it's what, 750 or so damage every 3 seconds non crits and without fester, please.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

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I'm in the same server as you are, and I do have relic +1, you can test me out some time on a primal boss fight whenever, and no, SMN still has BLMs beat in single target dps, if you're gauging the state right now with your SMN friends via threat meters, remember, 20-30% damage does not contribute to threat (garuda egi has it's own threat table), but even without the pet, we still manage to beat BLMs with the same gear on single target fights when it comes to enmity.

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Originally Posted by glim

which bosses are immune to our dots? ifrit not, garuda not, titan not, turn 1 not, turn 2 not, turn 3 not, turn 4 not. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

ruin is supposed to be low damage, imagine ruin II with double it's current damage, it'll be 380-400 per hit, while your dots tick 350-400, your pets hit 190-200. that's 1000 damage every 3 seconds (NON CRIT) and without fester, do you understand how OP that will be? even now when ruin II on it's current state, it's what, 750 or so damage every 3 seconds non crits and without fester, please.

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DEBUFFS. DEBUFFS. DEBUFFS. MIASMA HAS DEBUFFS THAT BOSSES ARE IMMUNE TO.

Even the ones you can inflict like blind have extremely harsh diminishing returns, making a second summoner obsolete in debuff application.

P.S. Spam Ruin II without bard popping mana song, please. Let's see how many festers instead of energy drains you can use then.

More love for SMN!

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Originally Posted by glim

I'm in the same server as you are, and I do have relic +1, you can test me out some time on a primal boss fight whenever, and no, SMN still has BLMs beat in single target dps, if you're gauging the state right now with your SMN friends via threat meters, remember, 20-30% damage does not contribute to threat (garuda egi has it's own threat table), but even without the pet, we still manage to beat BLMs with the same gear on single target fights when it comes to enmity.

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Ok - in that case how do we compare damage? As far as I know there are no reliable parsers for dots.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

DEBUFFS. DEBUFFS. DEBUFFS. MIASMA HAS DEBUFFS THAT BOSSES ARE IMMUNE TO.

Even the ones you can inflict like blind have extremely harsh diminishing returns, making a second summoner obsolete in debuff application.

P.S. Spam Ruin II without bard popping mana song, please. Let's see how many festers instead of energy drains you can use then.

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first of all, I do not spam ruin II, and even when I do (on movement heavy phases) I still manage to not go oom enough to pop an energy drain, and where do you need the miasma debuff, you don't need it in the first 3 primals, you don't need it in the first three turns, it is useful for the fourth turn, oh guess what.. miasma debuff works on turn 4. cutting AoE bugs heal rate by 50%, resulting in faster aoe phases. and on turn 1, if everyone's dps is high enough, there is no need to pop more than 1 or 2 slimes.

edit/additional: I forgot about garuda's heal, but miasma debuff works on garuda, so does shadowflare's 'slow', that slows movement speed, weaponskill attack speed, spellspeed and auto attackspeed, this is a big buff for the tanks, even though it says 5% chance, it's not, shadowflare's slow debuff is always up.

I'm gonna check next week if miasma debuff works on t1 boss.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

Ok - in that case how do we compare damage? As far as I know there are no reliable parsers for dots.

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enmity for now

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Originally Posted by glim

first of all, I do not spam ruin II, and even when I do (on movement heavy phases) I still manage to not go oom enough to pop an energy drain, and where do you need the miasma debuff, you don't need it in the first 3 primals, you don't need it in the first three turns, it is useful for the fourth turn, oh guess what.. miasma debuff works on turn 4. cutting AoE bugs heal rate by 50%, resulting in faster aoe phases. and on turn 1, if everyone's dps is high enough, there is no need to pop more than 1 or 2 slimes.edit/additional: I forgot about garuda's heal, but miasma debuff works on garuda, so does shadowflare's 'slow', that slows movement speed, weaponskill attack speed, spellspeed and auto attackspeed, this is a big buff for the tanks, even though it says 5% chance, it's not, shadowflare's slow debuff is always up.

I'm gonna check next week if miasma debuff works on t1 boss.

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Read the thread. I was responding to the guy that retorted that the DoT debuffs were some big summoner advantage over the black mage, when in fact they're of extremely niche use. Their best use is on non-boss enemies.

Here we have a thread of black mage crying when I'm pretty sure for most of the coil groups people carry black mages. The sustained damage difference against summoner is small but the burst potential gap is pretty large in the black mage's favor, and for burst aoe nothing beats him.

Summoner DPS is how it should be. If we don't get burst and it takes 7.5 seconds to setup our damage to start going at full speed, we should get the perk of higher sustained damage.

If we need to switch targets and the targets are not close, I cannot bane. I must go through my 7.5 sec dot setup all over. Meanwhile the blackmage can switch at full astral fire potency.

Same case goes for Dragoon vs. Monk. Monk SHOULD do higher sustained because the dragoon gets the perks of burst. Being able to frontload damage is of great value and it should not come on top of the best/same DPS as the class that must slowly build its damage.

Ramp up must be rewarded, or there's no point to playing the class with all the ramp up when you can play the class that doesn't need to cycle through all these abilities to start doing damage.

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Originally Posted by glim

enmity for now

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Potency per second is a better metric than enmity.

@Crescent Dusk

it's true that we have no 5-7 second window 'burst', but as of right now, the only time we need that burst is for titan's gaol, that's it.

but ok, for this discussion's sake, let's just say BLM and SMN do have the same damage output (which I very much disagree, I truly believe SMNs dps is much higher) but let's just say they are equal, for now.

there's a shit ton of reason to bring a SMN instead of a BLM in the current end game which is coil of bahamut, and not just in terms of utility, but in terms of DPS, yes, dps.

for turn 1, you will do exponentially more dps than the BLM because of multidotting capabilities, there will be 2 snakes up, and the snakes will be far away from each other, you can cast a total of 8 dots in that boss fight, while the BLM can only cleave more dps with thunder.

turn II, SMN and BLM are equal since it's only single target fights.

turn III is brbafkbbq

turn IV, yes, there are aoe burn phases here, but the aoe burn phase doesn't end fast enough for the SMN's dots to be neglibible when compared to the BLMs, the dots even fall off if casted without contagion before the phase is over. and again, SMNs edge here is multidotting spellcleaves on dreadnaught/soldier phases. while the BLM can only thunder.

this is how dot classes work. and this is also the reason why I don't buy that "we have no in demand burst" when the only time the burst is needed is for titan's gaol.

t4 aoe burn phase usually lasts 40-50 seconds (depending on everyone's dps) and has 6 targets. let me give you an example on how much dps a summoner can dish out during that time span.

bio2,miasma,bio full duration averages at 2250 and all falls off after 30 seconds, bane only hits 4 targets.

a total of 15 second cast time to hit all 6 targets.

*3 combo dots 2250 x6 = 13500 damage, 15 seconds cast time total ( have to cast twice cause of bane only hitting 4 targets)
*miasma II x6 intial and dot 50 + 125 x6, casted twice during the phase = 2000 damage, 5 second gcd total
*thunder each target 602 damage each, x6 = 3612, total of 15 seconds cast time.
*rouse + spur enkindle, 950 x6 = 5700 damage, no cast time, rouse and spur during gcds
*rouse + spur aerial slash 250 x6 casted twice during the fight = 3000 damage, no cast time, rouse and spur during gcds
*shadowflare 900 damage full duration x6 = 5400, usually free because you cast it before the adds spawn or when tanks are positioning everything.
* pet will attack roughly ten times during the phase, 195 x 10 = 1950

that's a total of 34622 aoe damage in under 40 seconds, or 41546 damage total with raging strikes. edit: minus the 5 thunders and enkindle and shadowflare, because raging strikes will not last long enough to affect the 5 thunders being casted, enkindle doesn't benefit from raging strikes and nor does shadowflare) maybe total is around 37-38000, not sure.

what's even scarier is I haven't even included crits in this calculation. nor a determination food buff and a pot.

my crit is 511 and I don't know how to calculate all this damage with my current crit rating.

edit/additional: haven't included foe requiem too... I also skipped contagion so it wont complicate things.

This is possibly the most ignorant thread I have seen on SMN. SMN does more dmg and has way more utility than BLM. There are very few reasons to choose one over a SMN unless you need burst, and even then, we are running 2 SMN on turn 4 because of the extra, overall dmg. So the only thing you have to cry about is how we are ramp-up dmg and not burst. If we got burst potential of BLM there would be NO reason to use them over SMN and that would fuck over all the BLMs.

As for Ruin 2 spam, what is wrong with you? You only use Ruin II to reapply blind IF you aren't using any plds(they apply their own blind with flash) or if you are dodging an attack. You never spam Ruin II. Ever. Apparently you are misunderstanding something if you are spamming it. There is still that 2.5s global cooldown. If you spammed Ruin II or Ruin, they would both do the same amount of dmg after a minute, the only difference is that the one spamming Ruin II has no mana....

Right now SMN is in a great, if not slightly powerful state as far as dmg potential. The only complaint any of us SMNs have are aesthetics and mechanics. Everything works fine for the way it's supposed to be. If anything, BLM could use a little bit of a buff.