There's a bit of a debate going on as to WARs mitigation and whether or not to use wrath or sit on 5 stacks at all times. I'm on the bus that says blow it and hopefully i'll roughly explain why below.
Feel free to put your reasons for or against afterwards but please back up with something. These numbers are rough averages for WAR50 w/ DL+ bravura+1
This is from a thread on the XIV forums and my argument as to why storing wrath is LUNACY and how WARs self heals roughly run down. Numbers are rough averages but tbh are being generous when it comes to the total HPS for WAR because it is not taking into account animation time for cooldowns and the like. So in reality is probably MUCH lower.
Thrill of battle: Roughly 1.5k heal, recast 120s
1500/120=12.5 12.5hps
Bloodbath: 25% of dps for 30 seconds every 90 secs. Assuming Dps of 190 let's say using zerk and other things for average dps....
((190/4)x30)/90=15.83333 15.83333hps
Inner Beast: Assuming that the average Ib heals for 1.5k (countin crits and non crits) you can do a maximum of 4.5 inner beasts per minute on average.
(1500x4.5)/60=112.5 112.5hps
Storm's Path: Average hit is around the 280 mark let's say. Heals for 50% and takes 7.5secs to get taht combo out.
(280/2)/7.5 = 18.67 18.67hps
There are all your self hps ability averages at 50. 12.5+15.83+112.5+18.67=159.5
Assuming you get the perfect roation 159.5 hps is what you'll get with these numbers. So your claim of 1000 hps is WAY WAY off. Unless you're IB hits for 6k heals everytime..... lol!
Edit again: Oh and before anyone screams "Aaaaargh keep wrath stacks at 5 at all times for extra healzzzz!" that will restrict you to only 2 IB's a minute. Dropping your average IB to 1200~ and hps from IB to this:
(1200x2)/60=40 You've just lowered your self healing WARs main form of mitigation by 72.5 hps
Assumig you ALWAYS have 15% extra heals (which you don't because of ramp up time) You need to be recieving 483.33 external healing EVERY SECOND! To make up for not using IB.
Whereas Using IB everytime you Have the opportunity (as example above 4.5 times a minute. You will still average at 7.5% extra healing AND the 112.5 hps from IB.
Holding wrath is trying to play WAR like a PLD. It does not compute.
In conclusion: You should blow IB as often as you can it's your best form of mitigation. With these numbers you could mitigate around 160dps incoming.
When a PLD (roughly 20% mitigation on average of incoming dps) is fight something that is doing more than 800~dps with same set up they become more effective.
Anyone that's been to coil will know around 3 stacks snake will be above 800 incoming dps.
I rest my case.
EDIT: As pointed out below I don't mean blow it once you hit 5 wrath and are sitting at full health lmao. I kinda took for granted that was common sense, but yes I can see where the confusion might lie. And as above these are rough numbers in a "perfect" scenario and in practice it's actually MUCH worse than this for DPS, HPS and the PLD overtaking point.
Wrath. To use it or not to and WARs hps!
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10-11-2013, 12:33 AMTerabyt3Wrath. To use it or not to and WARs hps!
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10-11-2013, 12:44 AMCodek
It's a situation ability, it's going to look good when calculating it with ideals. It can also hurt you so much if calculating with the worst case scenarios.
Example: Assuming your popping it regardless of whats coming at you and this scenario lands:
1. Your at full health and pop IB with no infuriate up
2. Your healing was 0 and your stack is lost
3. A big hit comes and you have no bonus healing to you
Your now stuck in a far worse situation then you should be.
I agree with everything you state except for the "At all Times" part. This ability (like most tanking abilities) is still a situation based ability.
Somewhere between the "Spam it off cooldown" and "never use it unless you have infuriate" boundaries is the ideal. -
10-11-2013, 12:46 AMTerabyt3
Yes. I agree I should clarify its pointless popping it if you're at full health :D hahahahha! That would be daft!
Even then I'd rather pop unchained to increase dps if the fight was that easy. -
10-11-2013, 12:46 AMDerzaIt's only at 800 dps if the paladin uses no cooldowns... It's really closer to 500-600 dps, and that is only when the warrior is in close to the best gear they can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terabyt3
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10-11-2013, 12:47 AMTerabyt3Indeed which is why I said "best case scenarios".Quote:
Originally Posted by Derza
I agree the actual incoming dps barrier is much lower than 800 in practice. But 20% average damage reduction per second is roughly correct for a PLD USING cd's maybe a little higher due to the dodge,parry,block rates and reduction and how those rolls are carried out. -
10-11-2013, 12:49 AMCodekYou would think it's daft but there are many times where a tank would pop it .3 seconds after a crit heal just landed nullifying everything. The scenarios are far too complicated to give any form of a simple statement in the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terabyt3
I think 'anticipation' is the magic word/key ingredient here. -
10-11-2013, 01:03 AMTronicOk, I'll assume you use food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terabyt3
190 dps while in defiance, equipped in full DL (no ilvl90s) with relic+1? Nah. I'd probably say around 110 is more workable. So i'd say around 9 hps.Quote:
Bloodbath: 25% of dps for 30 seconds every 90 secs. Assuming Dps of 190 let's say using zerk and other things for average dps....
((190/4)x30)/90=15.83333 15.83333hps
You'll be overhealing a lot by healing the second it's ready. Also, you could only get a couple of hits in with berzerk per min. I don't see a 1500 average happening.Quote:
Inner Beast: Assuming that the average Ib heals for 1.5k (countin crits and non crits) you can do a maximum of 4.5 inner beasts per minute on average.
(1500x4.5)/60=112.5 112.5hps
Not with defiance. And there's no way this will be your rotation all the time. Once every three rotations seems generous, because you need to keep BB and SE combos up. 5 hps, maybe?Quote:
Storm's Path: Average hit is around the 280 mark let's say. Heals for 50% and takes 7.5secs to get taht combo out.
(280/2)/7.5 = 18.67 18.67hps
I'd go with 12.5+9+80+5 = 106 for generous real world conditions.Quote:
There are all your self hps ability averages at 50. 12.5+15.83+112.5+18.67=159.5
So WARs are fine for AK and CM, but should stay home for coil. That's a given, no?Quote:
In conclusion: You should blow IB as often as you can it's your best form of mitigation. With these numbers you could mitigate around 160dps incoming.
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10-11-2013, 01:06 AMTerabyt3Quote:
Originally Posted by Codek
LMAO yeah you are right hahahahahah!
That's less to do with class mechanics and more to do with player skill though :D
Nice point out though! I hadn't thought about that and took it for granted :D -
10-11-2013, 01:14 AMTerabyt3Erm no food..... 30 VIT stack + party VIT takes you over 7k. Thrill of battle is 20%. hence the 1500~ (I did say rough numbers truns out it's 1440ishQuote:
Originally Posted by Tronic
190 dps was claims by a few people. i don't buy it myself and i did say again I was being generous.
I already clarified above from Codek pointing out I didn't mean blow it as soon as you got it lol that's my bad and took it for granted. I'd have thought it obvious if on full health or close not to bother.
Yeah i'd go lower than 106 to be perfectly honest but I was talking hypothetical best scenario situations bud :D
Unfortunately it's not a given though. Some people still argue it. WARs are viable for BS. But it is more efficient with PLD :D -
10-11-2013, 01:40 AMHachiko
190 DPS isn't realistic. 140 would be stretching it (and probably require 30 STR allocation and some DPS accessories, or several ilvl 90 armor pieces). 120 is more realistic.
Storm's Path is unrealistic because you can't maintain very good enmity while weaving it into your rotation, and using it when you're not applying SE, which will reduce the amount of healing your receive from Inner Beast by 11%.
You can't do 4.5 inner beasts per minute. The absolute most you can do is 4. In fact, 4 isn't possible I don't think. The most Wrath Stacks you can generate is 2 per 7.5 seconds. That means 8 combos per 60 seconds, or 16 Wrath stacks. You can add 5 for infuriate for 21. But you have to cut off 4 of the GCD's for Inner Beast which means cutting off at least 3 wrath stacks, leaving you at 18. You can get 4 inner beasts every, say, 65 or 66 seconds. OR maybe every 60 seconds if you have cooldowns up. But really, you're not going to be getting that many. Technically you should be looking at ~3.6 inner beasts per minute.
Anyhow, yeah I agree that you should only hold wrath in limited situations, and even in things like Turn 1 you should be using Inner Beast to mitigate damage. The problem is that it's really close to the break even point between using it and not using it in turn one, and at 4 stacks you should not be using it, but at 4 stacks death will be imminent anyway.
But that's why I made my little formula in the other thread: Use inner beast only when (incoming DPS - Inner Beast Heal/20)/1.08 > (Incoming DPS)/1.15. Whether or not you use it depends, primarily on the incoming DPS and how much healing your getting per Inner Beast. If you have berserk up and you can benefit from the heals, you should probably use it, also. (*p.s. I know you technically can't inner beast every 20 seconds, but the /20 is an average heal of the next 20 seconds and it approximates the average incoming healing bonus at 1.08 very well) -
10-11-2013, 01:50 AMSakasaBerserk and Vengence both add a stack on use so that would adjust the number of stacks capable of generating in a 30 sec window. HAven't done the math or trying to prove his or your point just clarifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
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10-11-2013, 02:04 AMHachikoThat's why I said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakasa
You can get 4 inner beasts every, say, 65 or 66 seconds. OR maybe every 60 seconds if you have cooldowns up.