All the lag, network issues are server side [CONFIRMED]

So after requesting a refund for the subscription I paid for this month because I haven't been able to play this is the message I received from SE support:

"Dear Customer,

Regarding your request for account support. Please find your answer below.

If you are receiving an Error 90000 when attempting to access FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn, please try again later. This error simply means that the server is congested and you will need to keep trying until you are able to login. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

Thank you for contacting the SQUARE ENIX Support Center."

Take that you white knight "gurus" of supposed throttling knowledge.

Oh and here is a wikipedia quote from their Network Congestion article: "In data networking and queueing theory, network congestion occurs when a link or node is carrying so much data that its quality of service deteriorates. Typical effects include queueing delay, packet loss or the blocking of new connections. A consequence of these latter two is that incremental increases in offered load lead either only to small increases in network throughput, or to an actual reduction in network throughput."

So that is ALL OF THE ISSUES DESCRIBED.

I personally think its a provider issue, as the massive amounts of data collected by players point to this.

Receiving an auto response from SE about error 90000 in no way is official confirmation of your claim tho.

I would however, in your case, contact my bank and get my money back.

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Originally Posted by ntall1

I personally think its a provider issue, as the massive amounts of data collected by players point to this.

Receiving an auto response from SE about error 90000 in no way is official confirmation of your claim tho.

I would however, in your case, contact my bank and get my money back.

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Actually this was the second message in our back and forth, not automated. Also, it clearly says this is a server issue. In a few other threads I have gone over my own connection, which is flawless.

It still is not a confirmation that ALL the problems are server side. While the 90k may indeed be a serverside error in your case, I've also gotten 90k'd when my wireless decideds to hiccup on me. When it comes to networking, unfortunately it's never one simple, cut and dry solution, because it's never just one problem.

Imo, it's all of the above: Routing issues, SE, the Montreal Data Centers, their backbone...etc, and I think what's pissing people off more than the issues themselves, is the fact that in every other mmo, with the exception of other SE mmo's, we are used to communication from the team that has produced said MMO. However, in their infinite flawed wisdom, SE has decided to remain mum on 90% of the issues people are experiencing both in and out of the game. Hell, from what i've seen the forum mods care more about banning people from the forums for "infractions" than actually doing their job, and answering a person's questions or assisting them.

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Originally Posted by Gonzothegreat198

It still is not a confirmation that ALL the problems are server side. While the 90k may indeed be a serverside error in your case, I've also gotten 90k'd when my wireless decideds to hiccup on me. When it comes to networking, unfortunately it's never one simple, cut and dry solution, because it's never just one problem.

Imo, it's all of the above: Routing issues, SE, the Montreal Data Centers, their backbone...etc, and I think what's pissing people off more than the issues themselves, is the fact that in every other mmo, with the exception of other SE mmo's, we are used to communication from the team that has produced said MMO. However, in their infinite flawed wisdom, SE has decided to remain mum on 90% of the issues people are experiencing both in and out of the game. Hell, from what i've seen the forum mods care more about banning people from the forums for "infractions" than actually doing their job, and answering a person's questions or assisting them.

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I suppose "all" is a bit misleading. All the issues people on this forums are having is a better way to put it.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

I suppose "all" is a bit misleading. All the issues people on this forums are having is a better way to put it.

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Nope, not even that.

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Originally Posted by ntall1

I personally think its a provider issue, as the massive amounts of data collected by players point to this.

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Actually there are FAR more players that have posted that they checked with their providers and are NOT being throttled.

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Originally Posted by Gonzothegreat198

Nope, not even that.

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If you actually read the forums you would know it to be true. The 200ms connections some have with Cogentco arent enough to cause the lag issues either. It is 100% the servers causing our grievances.

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Originally Posted by svann

Actually there are FAR more players that have posted that they checked with their providers and are NOT being throttled.

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I was not talking about personal ISP. I am talking about the provider SE uses for their Montreal Database. I guess I should have been more clear on that. I know its not my ISP, I have already spent time on the phone with them.

@Appleh4x See the thing is, it still could be a routing issue, just that there is a point in the route where you will no longer be able to route around. If it is an issue with the server-side backbone or networking hardware, then yes it is an issue SE and only SE can correct, and look how I said server-side. Saying that it is merely a server issue can be severely misleading and at most times totally incorrect.

If it was really a server issue it would affect 100% of the players online at the time. Not just 85% of them......

well, its good to see that i'm not the only one getting the 90k error every 5 minutes or so

A majority of all 90k I have experienced have NOT been from SE servers disconnecting me, but from issues with my network provider.
Whenever it happens, the gateway at my network provider stops responding to ping, and there's no way that SE can cause that.
My network provider keep saying there is no problem, even when I can prove there is A problem on their side.

The times I've been certain that it was on SE's side the disconnection occurred, it also affected everyone connected to the same instance/world server.

The lag issues are in general separate from the 90k issues and mostly happen during peak times when servers are congested.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

A majority of all 90k I have experienced have NOT been from SE servers disconnecting me, but from issues with my network provider.
Whenever it happens, the gateway at my network provider stops responding to ping, and there's no way that SE can cause that.
My network provider keep saying there is no problem, even when I can prove there is A problem on their side.

The times I've been certain that it was on SE's side the disconnection occurred, it also affected everyone connected to the same instance/world server.

The lag issues are in general separate from the 90k issues and mostly happen during peak times when servers are congested.

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My problem with 90k happens because i'm currently on wireless until my friend sends me some cat6 cabling. The issue being is i'm in an 80foot long modular home with me on the one side and the wireless router on the other, and even then it only happens rarely.

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Originally Posted by ntall1

If it was really a server issue it would affect 100% of the players online at the time. Not just 85% of them......

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It is if the server is specifically timing out certain IPs to improve service going to others. I think it's kind of funny that an SE rep specifically told me it was the server, and you guys are still acing like that isn't the problem.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

It is if the server is specifically timing out certain IPs to improve service going to others. I think it's kind of funny that an SE rep specifically told me it was the server, and you guys are still acing like that isn't the problem.

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1) Lag issues are from congestion
2) A small number of 90k's can be from the server
3) As can be proven by plenty of people, not all 90k's are SE's fault

Don't read more into the reply you got than is needed.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

It is if the server is specifically timing out certain IPs to improve service going to others. I think it's kind of funny that an SE rep specifically told me it was the server, and you guys are still acing like that isn't the problem.

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Another issue? You weren't told jack by an SE rep, you were given an automated response, one that had been given countless times before. You mentioned you 90k'd so they gave you the generic automated response for 90k issues. That in and of itself is not enough evidence to then go and say "HEY GUYZ I KNOW WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS". If you would actually look at the various other threads in this forums you would see that there is strong evidence for there being either a server-side network infrastructure(ie routing/cabling) or network hardware(Router, switch, access point) issue. Especially since the latest posts have almost nothing to do with 90k. Its all about major lag, rubberbanding, strobe effect...etc.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

1) Lag issues are from congestion
2) A small number of 90k's can be from the server
3) As can be proven by plenty of people, not all 90k's are SE's fault

Don't read more into the reply you got than is needed.

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I'm not reading more into it, the SE guys didn't have me run any tests, this is what they flat out told me was the problem. My own traceroutes I have run here on the forums are fine and the ones you are referring to about other people "proving" some aren't SE's fault is BS. A 200 ms ping is 1/5 of a second. That is what cogent is giving those people, 1/5 a sec of lag. What everyone is complaining about is actually several full seconds of lag, timeouts, etc that are the fault of the server. You guys have been wrong from the start and know next to nothing about how a traceroute actually even works. I saw someone blame a lone * (timeout) as the problem in someone's traceroute, not a full timeout mind you, but 1 lone asterisk.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

I'm not reading more into it, the SE guys didn't have me run any tests, this is what they flat out told me was the problem. My own traceroutes I have run here on the forums are fine and the ones you are referring to about other people "proving" some aren't SE's fault is BS. A 200 ms ping is 1/5 of a second. That is what cogent is giving those people, 1/5 a sec of lag. What everyone is complaining about is actually several full seconds of lag, timeouts, etc that are the fault of the server. You guys have been wrong from the start and know next to nothing about how a traceroute actually even works. I saw someone blame a lone * (timeout) as the problem in someone's traceroute, not a full timeout mind you, but 1 lone asterisk.

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Please, please stop while you're ahead. You've taken an automated response from SE to mean that you are now an expert and know what you are talking about and you don't. You're not even close, 200 ms while seemingly small is enough of a latency issue to cause congestion, especially when is a multitude of packets being sent and not just three, which is what a tracert sends, hell if you think its not go talk to some of the aussies playing on NA/EU servers.

I have gotten the 90k. I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT IT WAS NOT DUE TO SE HARDWARE FAILURE! I know for a fact it was due to my wifi connection losing the signal to the router, guess how i knew that? Thats right because my little wifi icon got a big red x at the same time i got the 90k.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

I'm not reading more into it, the SE guys didn't have me run any tests, this is what they flat out told me was the problem. My own traceroutes I have run here on the forums are fine and the ones you are referring to about other people "proving" some aren't SE's fault is BS. A 200 ms ping is 1/5 of a second. That is what cogent is giving those people, 1/5 a sec of lag. What everyone is complaining about is actually several full seconds of lag, timeouts, etc that are the fault of the server. You guys have been wrong from the start and know next to nothing about how a traceroute actually even works. I saw someone blame a lone * (timeout) as the problem in someone's traceroute, not a full timeout mind you, but 1 lone asterisk.

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90000 disconnect is not the same as the lag issues. They are two separate problems.
Lag issues come from two main points: 1) Server congestion (affects most people on at the time), 2) Packet shaping (affects only people whose path is being shaped)

I'm not saying the 90000 error is never on SE's side, but in general it's not, and it's also not the same thing as the lag issues... Please understand the difference between these issues and that there are more ways than one that things can go wrong.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

90000 disconnect is not the same as the lag issues. They are two separate problems.
Lag issues come from two main points: 1) Server congestion (affects most people on at the time), 2) Packet shaping (affects only people whose path is being shaped)

I'm not saying the 90000 error is never on SE's side, but in general it's not, and it's also not the same thing as the lag issues... Please understand the difference between these issues and that there are more ways than one that things can go wrong.

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I'm really starting to wonder, when they did that upgrade, did they just add servers or did they also increase the bandwidth and capabilities of the networking hardware and infrastucture to handle the increased amount of incoming connections as a result of the increased server capacity.

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Originally Posted by Gonzothegreat198

I'm really starting to wonder, when they did that upgrade, did they just add servers or did they also increase the bandwidth and capabilities of the networking hardware and infrastucture to handle the increased amount of incoming connections as a result of the increased server capacity.

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That might be a very good point. I've been able to get on twice since they did that so they screwed something up.

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Originally Posted by Gonzothegreat198

I'm really starting to wonder, when they did that upgrade, did they just add servers or did they also increase the bandwidth and capabilities of the networking hardware and infrastucture to handle the increased amount of incoming connections as a result of the increased server capacity.

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This is the reason that every mmo ever has had all their servers in many different data centers around the world, and not in one single location.

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Originally Posted by ntall1

This is the reason that every mmo ever has had all their servers in many different data centers around the world, and not in one single location.

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Hell doesn't blizzard not only have separate NA and EU Centers, but also East and West coast centers? Dang it, now i'm curious and actually have to look it up...crap...wow...double crap....

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

So after requesting a refund for the subscription I paid for this month because I haven't been able to play this is the message I received from SE support:

"Dear Customer,

Regarding your request for account support. Please find your answer below.

If you are receiving an Error 90000 when attempting to access FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn, please try again later. This error simply means that the server is congested and you will need to keep trying until you are able to login. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

Thank you for contacting the SQUARE ENIX Support Center."

Take that you white knight "gurus" of supposed throttling knowledge.

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The error 90000 is a general error used to point the admins in a general direction to look. Basically, Error 90000 is a disconnect. You can unplug your router and wait for the error to populate on your client. This doesn't mean that the server is having an issue, it means you cannot connect to the network due to packet loss and the client being unable to authenticate itself with the host.

This error can populate anywhere from hop one to end point. It doesn't mean that the issue is directly related to Square as a disconnect can happen literally anywhere on the route path.

The email you received also looks to be either a canned response or an auto generated reply. Normally, these emails are used as a blanket email by tech firms that are overloaded with support requests. Instead of their agents typing out individual responses, they use a blanket statement to essentially dissuade people from contacting them with egregious requests and/or repeat inquiries from the same login. If you read between the lines, that email actually reads as a "stop contacting us" email.

I don't think anyone has claimed the issue is throttling and I don't think anyone is "white knighting". You may have misinterpreted statements made by others.

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Originally Posted by Gonzothegreat198

Hell doesn't blizzard not only have separate NA and EU Centers, but also East and West coast centers? Dang it, now i'm curious and actually have to look it up...crap...wow...double crap....

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Hah I was right they do, heck they added a few servers since I last played, holy crap...http://www.wowwiki.com/US_realm_list_by_datacenter

This thread is so full of denial. Look over my other posts if you want more specifics on what I've already covered regarding the issue.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

So after requesting a refund for the subscription I paid for this month because I haven't been able to play this is the message I received from SE support:

"Dear Customer,

Regarding your request for account support. Please find your answer below.

If you are receiving an Error 90000 when attempting to access FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn, please try again later. This error simply means that the server is congested and you will need to keep trying until you are able to login. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

Thank you for contacting the SQUARE ENIX Support Center."

Take that you white knight "gurus" of supposed throttling knowledge.

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Since the error SE's mail is discussing has nothing to do with 'lag' or 'throttling' your comment is as irrelevant as your ignorance of what causes 'lag' and what 'throttling' is, as we already established when you tried to proffer 'ping' times as evidence for your flawed views.

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Originally Posted by KraggyKor

Since the error SE's mail is discussing has nothing to do with 'lag' or 'throttling' your comment is as irrelevant as your ignorance of what causes 'lag' and what 'throttling' is, as we already established when you tried to proffer 'ping' times as evidence for your flawed views.

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That was the second letter in a line about a lag issue, the header for the email actually states that it is about lag and disconnects.

Bump for relevance because there are 8 new topics on this in 5 hours.

Once again, this all happened to me at least AFTER the Oct 1rst maintenance. I'm not throwing out conspiracy or whatever, but me thinks something messed up during that maintenance that slipped by them.

There's another one friday, if going by their maintenance schedule. So maybe things will stabilize.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

Bump for relevance because there are 8 new topics on this in 5 hours.

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Tell you what, you get a Sr. Systems Admin from the Montreal office to send you an email confirming the problem is on them (providing details) and I'll consider it relevant.

I can't take a canned response seriously when it's basically telling you to go away.

I know this because my company actively uses these responses to deal with our some of our more problematic end users and we don't want to waste time explaining and issue and how to fix as they won't listen because it's not the answer they want to hear.

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Originally Posted by Marishi-Ten

Tell you what, you get a Sr. Systems Admin from the Montreal office to send you an email confirming the problem is on them (providing details) and I'll consider it relevant.

I can't take a canned response seriously when it's basically telling you to go away.

I know this because my company actively uses these responses to deal with our some of our more problematic end users and we don't want to waste time explaining and issue and how to fix as they won't listen because it's not the answer they want to hear.

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Oh, you mean this guy? 5 steps ahead of you. http://www.square-enix-montreal.com/team/Tony-Pressacco

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

So after requesting a refund for the subscription I paid for this month because I haven't been able to play this is the message I received from SE support:

"Dear Customer,

Regarding your request for account support. Please find your answer below.

If you are receiving an Error 90000 when attempting to access FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn, please try again later. This error simply means that the server is congested and you will need to keep trying until you are able to login. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

Thank you for contacting the SQUARE ENIX Support Center."

Take that you white knight "gurus" of supposed throttling knowledge.

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If you notice, that's the same thing mentioned in the 90000 sticky that nobody reads. That is a stock response.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you notice, that's the same thing mentioned in the 90000 sticky that nobody reads. That is a stock response.

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What are you talking about it doesn't say that at all.
"
Hi all,

As posted elsewhere before, we are investigating issues that might be caused by ISPs classifying FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn as P2P software.

To give us a clearer view on how widespread this issue is, it would be much appreciated if everyone who experienced such issues could post the following information as a reply to this thread:
- Name of ISP
- Country of Residence
- When does the problem occur (always, only during specific times?)
- Reference number from your ISP, if you raised this matter with them
Again, my apologies for the trouble this is causing and thank you for your cooperation!
- Aethingie"

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

It is if the server is specifically timing out certain IPs to improve service going to others. I think it's kind of funny that an SE rep specifically told me it was the server, and you guys are still acing like that isn't the problem.

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Most businesses outsource their tech support to agencies who are not even involved with the product, and are given a list of things to say when someone contacts them. It is very rare that an issue needs to be forwarded to the actual contracting business. Many times people will get answers from these "support" agencies that are completely false.

And as far as "all problems"? I have never had a 9000 error, but have had others. That message only specified the 9000 error code.

Hi Apple, while I wanted to jump in with you on this one, I cannot. I get 90k when I have issues on my end. I also get 90k when I'm sitting in Ul'dah crafting and instead of my usual 5 seconds of lag it jumps to 30 seconds. If the SE response directly addressed the latter, I would agree it is conclusive. However, it just says 90k without going into any details. It is as if they are saying, "don't contact us anymore". I believe the issue I have IS server based, but that email does nothing to convince me SE is doing anything about it or even understands what the problem is. Perhaps if you post the first letter as well? And if you did post the first letter somewhere, I'm sorry I must have glanced over it. I'm with you in the lag, Masha

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Originally Posted by Araye

Hi Apple, while I wanted to jump in with you on this one, I cannot. I get 90k when I have issues on my end. I also get 90k when I'm sitting in Ul'dah crafting and instead of my usual 5 seconds of lag it jumps to 30 seconds. If the SE response directly addressed the latter, I would agree it is conclusive. However, it just says 90k without going into any details. It is as if they are saying, "don't contact us anymore". I believe the issue I have IS server based, but that email does nothing to convince me SE is doing anything about it or even understands what the problem is. Perhaps if you post the first letter as well? And if you did post the first letter somewhere, I'm sorry I must have glanced over it. I'm with you in the lag, Masha

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Actually my main point was them admitting they have server congestion, which leads to all of those problems. It is pretty basic networking stuff. A server is overloaded so it limits QOS to a number of incoming lines to improve quality for others.

How is that news? They have been admitting server congestion since launch.

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Originally Posted by Brises

How is that news? They have been admitting server congestion since launch.

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They admitted to the game being more popular than expected, but not actually congestion. Server congestion directly causes packet loss, timeouts, refused connections... basically all the issues described. The 90k error once logged in is a timeout, and 90k before logging in is a refused connection, and the lag is the mass packet loss.