So, this was actually my idea for a multi-part blog entry originally, but after writing it up I decided not to publish it because it was basically just me explaining, in the most simplest terms I could, why the current economy sucks big time and makes crafting and gathering incredibly unrewarding.
But, I decided it was better to open conversation on the matter to get other people's opinion on the subject, as well as maybe offer some solutions in some vain hope that they might be influence the direction the game will go in the future (just being real here).
The way I see it, the current economy is pretty much crafter to crafter trading, and gatherer to crafter trading for most part. Combat classes gear from quests, then from dungeons, crafting food is an insanely time consuming endeavor compared to the (very minor) bonuses that it provides and medicine items are incredibly weak with long cooldowns. This isn't to say that there isn't money to be made, but it's mostly in form of materials (ore, logs), or refined materials (cloth, lumber) with very little actual equipment being sold.
The funny thing is, most of the people who ask me to craft them something are OTHER CRAFTERS that basically want me to powerlevel them by HQing items for their leves. That alone is insane, because I don't understand why I would want to basically powerlevel my own competition. Say what you say, but crafting and gathering is always PVP, you are competing for customers (I'm not even that aggressive on market board, but that's what trading boils down to).
I have devised a few solutions to make crafting and gathering more involved. I'll start with the solutions that are faster to implement and work my way down the list from there.
1. Food / Medicine reforms
Basically, make food and medicine recipes use less shards/crystals/clusters, remove HQ food and medicine and make HQ chance generate more food/medicine than NQ (FFXI, wink wink nudge nudge, c'mon guys that game was also made by you). Buff the food effects across the board, and make star and two star food buffs persist after death. Drop medicine cooldowns significantly and buff the NQ medicine to HQ levels (because HQ medicine will not exists anymore).
This will create a healthy supply and demand for the items.
2. Rare equipment recipes for exceptional items
I don't much care what the delivery method will be, but we need rare recipes in order to be able to create a niche for ourselves, so we don't all end up competing with each other. And the items produced by these recipes need to be actually exceptional. Like several iLevel above what the normal and dungeon gear is. And I'm not talking about endgame gear, that's a whole different can of worms. I'm talking about there needing to be a reason for a person to buy crafted gear while leveling. If a crafter could create a blue quality item for level 30 combat class, that outshined anything from dungeons, there would be an actual reason for the person to buy that item.
3. Crafting class specialization
You have that nifty job crystal system, why not use it for crafting classes. I thought crafter classes were supposed to be a viable option for experiencing the game too, right? Now, unlike DOW/DOM job crystals, you could only get one per crafting class, maybe out of three possible crystals. Each would give it's own recipes, further enabling crafters to carve out a niche for themselves.
4. Actual content for DoL / DoH
Last but not least, how about we get actual content for gathering and crafting classes? There has been a lot of talk about crafting/gathering dungeons and whatnot on these forums lately. I understand that S-E had to "re-prioritize" the game with ARR, and bring DOM/DOW classes to spotlight, but that doesn't mean that people who enjoy crafting should be denied content altogether. Housing will bring new recipes for crafters, but I doubt it will bring even a shred of actual content for DOH and DOL classes.
Sorry for the wall of text. I have four crafting classes and two gathering classes at 50, and seeing the current economy for what it is (a joke) just really pisses me off, when FFXI had a better one even after gil sellers basically took over the servers. And no, I'm not going back to FFXI, that's not what this is about. I just wish MMO devs would widen their horizons even just a little bit and not assume that scripted combat content is the be all end all of every MMO ever.
Economy of FFXIV
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10-02-2013, 06:38 AMAnderianEconomy of FFXIV
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10-02-2013, 07:27 AMKaliban
1. I think this would be better really. Though FFXI had HQ versions of food (Mithkabobs--> Chiefkabobs) but they lasted longer, typically double the time
2. I completely agree. There is really no reason for most crafters to take up the trade. You can make money with niche or endgame accessories but that is largely a crap aspect of a crafting system imho. I think if they began re-instituting extra stats aside from materia (increased counter-attack %, evasion, etc) it would HELP crafting. I think it was in during 1.0 so the precedent is there.
3. This would work best if tied into #2. WoW did this with certain kinds of leatherworker and FFXI did it somewhat in that you could get the Key Item to be able to make sushi, anima, or ensorcellment of other things.
4. While this would be nice the way the game is set up it would be difficult to pull off and be worth the effort I think.
I loved FFXI, still do really, but this is not FFXI and I think we all know and accept that. That being said, it is asinine to not utilize things that worked form that game or others. I personally wish they could make crafting as viable as it was pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies. I hope they show crafting love. A lot of love. Balance them with respect to the rest of the game. But the above I personally think would go a long way towards making them both relevant and more enjoyable. -
10-02-2013, 08:00 AMroohan
For me it is this:
1: Increase the XP-Gain for gathering classes, so the market is not flooded with items. I mean Gatherers collect alot of stuff just to level up. Crafting classes don't need that much materials to level up.
2 :Let crafting and gathering classes unlock guild leves. I'm stuck at my Botanist at level 37 now because my BLM is not high enough to unlock new leves. I don't want to get forced to level my BLM first.
4: Make the game more dependent on crafters. I mean you get Gear for free when you're doing quests. Buying gear from NPC's is way to cheap. I could imagine lots of ways to make crafting more viable but thats not my part.
5: Gatheres and Crafters should really have more quests. But I guess that's something the development team doesn't have in mind. It might have a very low priority.
6: GP really need to get adjusted. It's boring as gatherer to use skills and the GP recovery is damn slow especially when the good skills cost almost all GP you have. -
10-02-2013, 08:24 AMAnderianI completely forgot that FFXI had HQ foods. O_OQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaliban
Well, XIV crafting system is more simplistic anyway, in regards to HQ, there are no HQ2s, HQ3s or HQ4s, for one. HQs seem to be a binary system; either a recipe has a HQ (most of items) or they don't (dyes for example).
And I know I didn't outright say it, but obviously my hope would be that all of my suggested changes would be implemented in some form. Doing just one or few of them is basically damage control, it won't keep crafter-oriented players like myself playing. Whether or not crafter/gatherer content is difficult to pull of, it needs to happen. Otherwise, what in Byregot's name was the point of making the crafting professions actual classes in the first place?
In regards to making crafting actually more relevant (which obviously is my goal with the suggested changes), I think the best short-term solution they could do right now is just flat-out remove all gear and material vendors from the game. I know that sounds harsh, but if you think about it, that would generate actual synergy between combat, gathering and crafting classes, and make even low-end gear something that people would buy.Quote:
Originally Posted by roohan
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10-02-2013, 09:16 AMKaliban
I agree with crafting needing love, and I can understand your desire for crafting related content in terms of dungeons, instances, etc. I think this would be difficult in that it would not be (nor should it really) be something they could throw together. I think damage control now is better than nothing though. That being said, what would be really really cool (in my mind at least) is the following:
Be able to queue through the DF with other Crafters (parties of 8 so it would be a full party) similar to how we queue for other instances; but in this instance, each class would have to create a component that would help the war effort and directly stop the advance of the enemy (obviously instance only) in the town, area, region, etc. This enemy currently would be Garleans or Beastmen, but as expansions come out it would be something like the Dragons from Ishgard, or something else we have not thought of. The instance clears in the same way the others do, and several stages must be overcome by mechanisms involving a number of Crafters.
I think that would perhaps be the coolest and best use of the DF and crafting classes with instances. This would obviously be something long-term though. However, the pieces are there and so it would not be as tough to institute. Thoughts on the matter? -
10-02-2013, 10:04 AMTekaru
I like these suggestions. I find that I'm a "casual" player of crafting in other MMOs, but I really wanted to give FFXIV crafting a shot. Mostly because it's so unique and does have some fun aspects to it.
but you guys are right, there's not much of an incentive here, other than being some kind of masochist or obsessive compulsive type that HAS to complete everything in a game.
just some of those easy fixes you guys suggest would make a big difference. why can't crafters make "blue" items, for example? you could have a choice: buy regular "white" gear from vendors or check the Market Board for crafted stuff.
anyway, while we are throwing out suggestions - what is up with the crafting supply vendors not having the same stuff?? I get that its trying to promote trading with other players - but it's so inconvenient. -
10-02-2013, 10:06 AMAnderianI'm all for any content that's tailored specifically for crafters and gatherers, even more if it's group content, but to be honest, instance content is the last thing I would want. I'm one of those grumpy old people who think instances have pretty much ruined MMOs, since they are nothing but a lame cost-cutting way for companies to churn out repeatable content for players. I truly think crafting is pretty much the last bastion of hope for actual MMOs, where if done properly, it creates bonds in the community and actually makes a virtual world feel more real. Everything has turned in to this lobby based, "let's get the loot quickly so I don't have to see you guys ever again", trolling, selfish bullcrap where everybody thinks that they are an unique little snowflake and other players are there simply to serve their needs. It has to stop, or this genre truly has no future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliban
So my vision of the content would be, that S-E actually gives us what we deserve, not simply "what they can piece together". Recipes that require multiple crafters at the same time, a token system that rewards crafters and gatherers with better equipment, quest series that take long time to finish and reward the crafter/gatherer with vanity gear and actual events that celebrate the non-combat side of MMOs, like for example, a weekly market event where crafters would be able to rent a stall and sell their wares directly to players. -
10-02-2013, 10:08 AMEnfariousMostly Yes
1. Food / Medicine reforms
Yes, as it is food/pots are kind of 'weak'. It would be nice to see consumables that are really put to use, and even demanded, to create a real market for crafters of this type. Of course the armor and weapon markets would still be hurting badly, but that is addressed later.
2. Rare equipment recipes for exceptional items
This could be useful, assuming that fates/general speed of leveling were adjusted in a way that left people with a 'need' to gear during the level grind. I can also see that crafting 'blue' or even just dungeon equiv. 'green' gear being tied to your next point: -
10-02-2013, 10:09 AMEnfarious
1000 char limit ... why does it exist?
3. Crafting class specialization
Crafting 'jobs' that allowed for the extremely difficult recipes of true artisans and produced crafted 'blue'/'purple' gear that, for a recipe that is doable at 50, would produce iLevel 80/90 respectively. This would be awesome, and could provide a reason for people to go back to buying gear for the current endgame content.
The only place I see any problem is, altering the leveling process enough to get people to have interest in buying early~mid game gear would mean some potential(likely) outrage. Of course without some kind of adjustments the early~mid game gear markets will probably remain a slot that is used simply for crafters that are grinding. Even now with the relative cost/reward of crafted endgame gear there isn't much of a market for it. It's far more cost effective to get full DL than it is to get full HQ crafted and materia, both the time costs and gil costs of each are wildly unbalanced. -
10-02-2013, 10:17 AMAnderianYou can get around it by editing your post. Yes, I know, S-E ingenuity at it's finest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
I didn't want to touch on the endgame crafting, because honestly it's such a huge can of worms, with countless variables that need to be taken to account. Mainly the number one reason; some people seem to consider equipment the end goal of playing an MMO, and as luck would have it, these people are not a minority. So, if you make the best equipment (or close enough to best) available for crafting, these people will buy gil, get the gear, get bored since they have no reason to do any content, and quit. You gotta keep dangling that gear like a carrot.
My only concern is making crafting (and gathering by extent) rewarding to the player, and positive to the community as a whole. Luckily for me, this doesn't require iLevel 80/90 recipes, it just requires content that is A) fun to do and B) rewarding enough that it won't matter if it feels a bit like a grind in some parts. Right now, there is a remarkable lack of synergy between gathering, crafting and combat aspects of the game, especially for a game that prides itself on having made both gathering and crafting professions actual classes. -
10-02-2013, 10:57 AMEnfarious
That's a nice workaround, thanks.
It is certainly a huge can of worms, and of course would take some serious balancing considerations to ensure that it didn't defeat the purpose of EG content. Sadly, at least as it is, even with new/more content for crafters there's no really effective way to tie into battle classes, other than food/pots. There is no gear worth paying for at this point, since folk level too quickly (this is true even for crafting classes) to 'waste' gil on mid-game and everything EG is from drops/chests/special currency trade (except for crafting gear).
So aside from bringing back Hamlet Defense style content, where crafting really did mean the difference between winning and losing, which was fun; I just can't see crafting getting back to being 'useful' again without A: slowing leveling and making gear count during leveling, this would mean alot of content (FATE/Solo content) related changes; and/or B: making mid-grade or side-grade EG gear that is crafted, even if it has insane recipes and materials that can't be bought/sold/traded, this would necessitate a 'crafting request' mechanic, so that a person could obtain all of the hard to get mats (not purchasable) and post the 'request to craft' for the recipe. This 'request to craft' mechanic could also potentially be added to the market boards, under a 'requests' section. -
10-02-2013, 11:10 AMKalibanWell, I can understand your desire for open world events. I would love to see those too but I think the reality is that this would be difficult to "Get Right". For one, all of the crafting guilds are in different cities, this would limit the versitility of the group part I would think. For two, the event would likely have a cap so not everyone would be able to participate (in a scenario like market day). As I said before, it would be great if the crafting capability and relevance was like pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxy (that was the only game where crafting was actually a viable and useful aspect and not like a second cousin that every deals with on Christmas because they have to). The problem with the game is in its design. In FFXI, the vast majority of gear was crafted. In this game it is a reward or available from NPCs. This is a fundamental flaw to my eyes. Add to that the inability to craft epic blues/pinks/tourqouises/etc and you exacerbate this and trivialize crafting. As it stands, crafting is largely useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderian
I would love to see the genre go back/transition to a form in which you were a blacksmith. That is what you did and could set up a store or something (tie it into housing) in which you sold your items (if you were off adventuring you NPC Retainer would do so for you) and could take commissions/negotiate prices, etc. Unfortunately the reality seems that the industry is more about creating a game where you get essentially instant gratification and small levels of immersion. At some point I hope this will change, if it does, the first game that can get it right should succeed if it doesnt screw something else up. Anyway, I hope they do SOMETHING for crafting, hopefully making it viable and actually relevant to the game in general. -
10-02-2013, 11:23 AMAnderianQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaliban
Both of your points actually reminded me that making crafting more relevant truly is somewhat of a lost cause at this point. I don't mean that in depressing way, just that it would actually require bigger system reforms, and I'm not sure Yoshi is willing to do those, as he seems to have a pretty clear vision of what he wants the game to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
Crafting and gathering as major content in an MMO truly requires a more "sandpark-ish" enviroment to truly work. As long as there are alternative means to get equipment (quests, vendors, low level dungeons) and high level equipment is used as a motivator to grind endgame content, there really is no place for crafting classes in the game. This is best exemplified by WoW, where professions where relegated to just another alternative means of gearing your own personal character (by giving crafter-only enchancements and such).
For there to be actual synergy, crafters need to be the only source of equipment, or at least the only source of SPECIFIC equipment, like it is with crafters and crafting AF right now. And, equipment decay wouldn't hurt, but pretty much everyone who isn't a crafter hates the concept these days. -
10-02-2013, 11:38 AMKaliban
This is true. It is weird, considering how involved and time consuming crafting was in FFXI I would have thought it would have been more useful in this game. Perhaps the original plan for the game in 1.0 had it being similar? Either way, Yoshi P. should step back from the table and re-evaluate the manner of gear progression and put in something that brings the other half of the spectrum, that is crafting, back into the fold. The game is new enough where you can start incorporating sandbox-like elements into it. I would take the ability craft blues/greens/etc as a bone for the time being. However, I do not want to see the "recipe only drops in the dungeon" crap. That really doesn't benefit crafters, unless that is the special version that is a little bit but noticeably better than the non dungeon recipe version. Crafting specialization to unlock blue/green/etc would make sense to me from a player stand point. "You can make HQ normal stuff, but if you want to be making the good stuff you need to specialize" however I would hope this allowed for switching to a different specialty (after a longish questline perhaps).
My personal outlook is that the best gear in the game should come from Crafted recipes. I think this builds community and also, gives someone something to strive for. Hopefully Yoshi P brings this to the table in the future. -
10-02-2013, 11:57 AMAnderianYeah, as I understand it (I only played 1.0 very briefly) crafting was actually a more integral part of the game. Not perfect by any stretch of imagination, but it had it's place and it had a lot more potential than most of the other aspects of the game. When 2.0 was conceived, Yoshi basically put everything that was in the works into backburner, and the whole core of ARR was based around the combat classes and a more traditional MMO experience (that's a nice way of saying that they decided to rip-off WoW wholesale).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliban
Agreed. This comes back to the problem that I mentioned earlier, the fact that equipment is being considered the end goal of everything, and that combat classes are supposed to be tied to all form of progression. You notice that there's no gear progression for crafters or gatherers? Just get your AF and put some materia on it. Crafters weren't that prominent even in the 1.0, but now they are basically an afterthought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliban
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10-03-2013, 05:26 AMWulfiesMy 2 gil to the OP post
1) Yeah that sounds good, but iirc in 1.0, if I used my primary hand item and got an HQ it would be the HQ version, but if I used my off-hand item when I HQed I would receive more quantity. So setup a quality vs quantity main/off-hand. my 2 gil :)
See Below Quote regarding the Potions (link to post also included): LINK
Very Pie-in-the-eyeQuote:
Originally Posted by Camate
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...r/sadpanda.gif
2) I totally am with you on the rare equipment recipes. I wish they would have trash items in some of the dungeons drop stuff like Coke/Animal Fat/etc/etc. Also, if i might add. have the ability to upgrade the loot items from dungeons. Example, would be you receive a "Darklight Robe Pattern" and you can either hand it to some NPC for the basic item, or trade it to a crafter for him to make a "Shiny Darklight Robe" which would have better stats and/or have sockets for materia.
3) +1 to this. The way I take your comment is that you wanted to skill tree the disciplines out and have only certain abilities/recipes avail depending on the branch of the tree you were using?
4) There have been other posts for having a Hamlet style event for Crafters/Gatherers which would be awesome. -
10-04-2013, 06:02 AMAnderianYeah, I'm still hoping they change their stance. I understand that balancing content is incredibly difficult, and even minor changes can have consequences that the dev team didn't even consider, but the medicine in their current form aren't viable in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
And yes, my proposition for soul crystals for crafting classes is that we would be able to specialize, much in the way DoW/DoM classes can. You could still use your classes to to take full potential of cross-class skills for one star and two star recipes, but the new recipes should be even more difficult and limit cross-skill choices so that you can't HQ 100% of the time. -
10-04-2013, 06:15 AMKsenia
I've said it before, we aren't playing FF14 ARR we are playing FF14 anti-1.00
So much heavy handed throttle mechanics from a 1 gil wonder vendor system to the sadistic shard grind to pointless materia. I've never seen such paranoia from a development crew. And I mean that whole heartedly. -
10-04-2013, 06:55 AMAnderianTo be completely fair to the development team, they were probably under ruthless time constraints, not to mention the fact that the new direction of the game was designed to bring in more casual players (also known as "the money"). Now, while I'm not saying people should let things slide, obviously everybody should demand better than we got, the dev team didn't make the decisions out of spite or short-sightedness (at least I hope they didn't), but rather out of necessity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia