Defiance's Damage Penalty, where does it come from?

To be brief, one rotation I had in mind was to pop Berserk and Unchained, before using second wind....to maximize my AP for a stronger self-heal.

But i was told by another player to not bother doing that since Unchained doesn't affect AP stats in any way.

Is this true?

How does the penalty work?

IF so, what's the point of having unchained anyway since WAR tank only need to worry about aggro and self-heals.....Unchained seems to be purely a DPS move, and any heals that bleed over to self-healing is minute compare to other abilities like "Inner Beast".

Unchained doesn't increase attack power. Defiance is merely a flat 25% reduction in damage output.

Unchained is an extremely situational use DPS boost on a very long cooldown. Frankly, it's one of the worst skills in the game. There are only 3 situations you should ever use it: 1) Phase 1 of fights to get a significant lead in Enmity when the boss doesn't have any increased killing capacity (i.e. Phase 1 titan, 0 stack Caduceus after split, etc.), 2) Burn Phases when bosses don't put out big amounts of damage but something has to die quickly (i.e. Titan Heart phase), and 3) Times when you are off tanking and too lazy to toggle off Defiance for whatever reason.

#3 is really iffy though. In general if you want the Unchained damage buff and aren't tanking all you have to do is turn off Defiance. It just sets you back 20 seconds in building Wrath stacks, but that shouldn't matter if you aren't taking damage. One situation though might be in a tank swap situation where you want to have 5 wrath as soon as you pick up the boss. In that case it might be worth it.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

#3 is really iffy though. In general if you want the Unchained damage buff and aren't tanking all you have to do is turn off Defiance.

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An excellent summary, but I would point out I swap back into defiance to build up wrath for my DPS burst when the cooldowns are back up, or merely to instantly self-heal with inner beast after a huge hit to lighten the load for my group's healers.

Damage penalties/increases are not the same as attack power penalties/increases. Maim and Defiance are damage modifiers. As such, they don't affect Second Wind at all. Berserk modifies attack power and, as such, *does* affect Second Wind.

You can tell if something is a damage modifier or an attack power modifier by checking the tooltip. It'll say one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Damage penalties/increases are not the same as attack power penalties/increases. Maim and Defiance are damage modifiers. As such, they don't affect Second Wind at all. Berserk modifies attack power and, as such, *does* affect Second Wind.

You can tell if something is a damage modifier or an attack power modifier by checking the tooltip. It'll say one or the other.

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Or, you know, check the character sheet to see if the ability you're using actually changes the Attack Power value.

I'd add a #4 to Hachiko's list.

#4) In a situation where the boss has entered a low damage/auto-attack cycle and you have 500-700HP missing while having Wrath V & Infuriate - your optimal self heal cycle is to use Bloodbath @20s of Bloodbath -> Berserk/Internal Release/Unchained (+50% Attack +25% DMG +20% Crit also Maim for +20% DMG, Eye for Slash +10%) @ Build Wrath V in those 20s while maximizing Bloodbath gains. If the monster spikes -> Inner Beast should be available after 5s Pacification -> Infuriate -> Wrath V

Unchained is highly situational in application and really will never see regular usage - it does help with certain self-healing combinations and can be a wonderful DPS tool but it's CD and Wrath cost are too long and too high respectively - hopefully Square considers reducing it's costs and revamping Steel Cyclone for better utility.

I use unchained only for bloodbath, or, like other's have said, during high damage requirement phases - last of ultima, titan heart, etc.

Everyone always forgets since they don't read the skills but maim gives you back 20% of the -25% damage debuff. Your net reduction is only 5%... well if the numbers don't lie that is.

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Originally Posted by Cocytus

Everyone always forgets since they don't read the skills but maim gives you back 20% of the -25% damage debuff. Your net reduction is only 5%... well if the numbers don't lie that is.

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No. Use of Maim is not exclusive to times when Defiance is up.

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Originally Posted by Cocytus

Everyone always forgets since they don't read the skills but maim gives you back 20% of the -25% damage debuff. Your net reduction is only 5%... well if the numbers don't lie that is.

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From what I've been able to gather, all multipliers are factored multiplicatively, rather than additively, which would suggest that Main + Defiance equates to 90% damage dealt ((1 + .2) * .75) rather than 95% (1+ .2 -.25).

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Originally Posted by Ysarel

No. Use of Maim is not exclusive to times when Defiance is up.

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Exactly, with berserk and maim active and defiance DOWN, you can effectively do a lot more damage then by simply fighting against the debuff, but then, you're also doing nothing to improve your ability to tank. At that point you might as well take the warrior soul off, since you can take 10 abilities from all classes that way, and just use MRD.