8.0 DPS Job Rework Workshop/Megathread. Goals, Design Principles, and Mock-Ups.

So, allegedly, we're getting some manner of broad Job rehauls come 8.0. Putting aside whether we believe this or not or whether it'd likely be for the better or worse, I'm curious what you all would like to see from those reworks for what jobs you're most concerned about.

More specifically, I'd like to know what, if you were to redesign the job in question, would be your Goals, your Design Principles, and even perhaps a sampled Mock-Up of your rework.

I'll add my own as soon as I can, but this is meant as a workshop to share goals and play around with implementations therein, constructively critique others' mock-ups, and so forth, rather than any singular showcase (though hopefully those who want to can polish their mock-ups here for release on their own threads later).

Please make use of the Reply With Quote feature when offering feedback to others' mockups. (You may also want to consider the Threaded display mode for a more organized view therein.)

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Originally Posted by Valence

Does this [have to] involve the current encounter model?

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Make whatever changes you think are at least decently feasible (even if not in keeping with developer trends) for 8.0. Just please reference them so we have the context intended for your goals/principles/mock-ups.

Quick Links to notable suggestion mock-ups, complete with very brief descriptions:

(If anyone wants their quick descriptions changed, just edit in a note at the bottom of your post and I'll find and swap to your preferred summary when routinely checking like counts on mock-up posts, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Carighan

SMN (make the summon types [Red-Yellow-Green) more distinction from each other, increase total number of SMNs possible, and allow choice of Bahamut/Phoenix [acme Baha removed].

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Originally Posted by Valence

MCH (aiming to make tools more meaningful, instead of "all flare, no substance")
DNC (a bit more buff agency)
BRD (more involved party buffs and specific song abilities, a bit more flexibility over timing of infrequent nukes like Resonant Arrow)

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Originally Posted by Raikai

DNC - Additional utility, some action on the dance steps themselves, more reason to use feathers in the moment, and still being able to benefit from Closed Position using one's own actions when not paired with anyone.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

New job - Beastmaster [TBR] to function as a tag-team unit with swappable pets, sort of like a melee summoner that's actually a summoner instead of 4-nukes-per-minute-er.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

SMN rework (to actually have summons again)
New job - Ranger (proccy, also uses pets).

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Originally Posted by Connor

BRD (more song control, empyreal charges, MP use returned)

- Remove cool-downs on songs but give them cast timers (1.5). Just make it so each song can’t be cast twice consecutively to stop 100% Minuer uptime. Maybe give them prohibitive MP costs that are reduced after completing a song

- Let us use MP again. Add MP restoration to using repertoire procs, or maybe even turn Paeon into a dedicated ‘mp return’ song if they want it to keep being the ‘maintenance’ song.

- Empyreal charges would help

- Battle Voice. It’s just…there? Having played Bard since 1.0 I’d hate to see something that’s been part of the kit for so long just go, but at the same time it barely has any reason to exist as an individual skill anymore. Maybe they could put the direct hit rate increase somewhere else and let Battle Voice interact with songs again? Idk lol

- Paeon still kinda sucks. I don’t like a song whose entire purpose is not to be sung for the full duration; why even give it a full duration? Switching songs should be a decision the player actively makes and not ‘welp conveyor belt says it time for the boring one’ lol. Maybe it could change Burst Shot into ‘Burstier Shot’ (lol) which has a walking cast (can’t remember the PvP skill name). Best of both worlds? People who enjoy that kinda style could experience it in PvE but those who don’t could minimise time singing it? In an ideal world

- Minne and Warden’s Paean are functionally redundant - nobody needs an extra 10% heal outside of making meme shields, and Esuna simply does not show up in enough content to warrant giving Bard a support Esuna ( on a goddamn 45 second cool-down lol ). I think it’d be cool if they became actual spells with MP costs, like 1000/2000 for Minne and 500-1000 for Warden’s. Since Bards can’t restore MP naturally 100% uptime would be impossible (and entirely useless anyway). If they did as above and retooled Bard to use it’d MP, the simple fact that repeated use would cause dps loss would be balance enough I’d say. Like, if the effect is gonna be pointless at least let us use it when we want. And I’m honestly so bloody sick of everything support-related being a cool-downs. Alternatively give them additional effects, maybe based on song. Like Minne could restore MP during Ballad, HP during Paeon and an Improvisation-style mini shield during Minuet.

- I want my Foe Requiem back . No, I don’t care that it’s useless/unnecessary/impossible to balance/ w/e/requires an mp system that barely exists anymore/ give it back Yoshiiii *flailing arms like a baby*. And I swear in my life if it comes back as instant 120s cool-down I will- *is carried off by Moogles*

- More Radiant Encore , maybe one after each song with increasing potency for each seal, resetting after max with 3 seals. Though that would require decoupling with Radiant Finale too since it would reset seals and Encore would permanently be at minimum potency lol.

- Troubadour needs to be made distinct from the other phys ranged (and likewise for them). There’s absolutely no reason why they need to be literally identical skills. For Bard maybe it could go back to the original version with different defensive effects based on current song? Maybe HP Regen for Paeon, HP shield for Ballad and movement speed increase for Minuet?

- Some new ability ideas:
> An Iron Jaws ‘spellcaster in trench coat’ type weaponskill that applies an AoE DoT. When used, it grants a proc that makes the next Iron Jaws spread -bite (not you, Ladonsbite) DoTs to all nearby enemies. Maybe a bit convoluted over just making the AoE DoT also spread them I guess.
> HP Regen song (lower mp cost), MP regen song (higher mp cost), to complement Foe Requiem for when defensive/recovery stuff isn’t needed (purely in theory lol.)
> Final Fantasia, the PvP LB, would be amazing as a really strong cool-down; I’d even accept 120-180s (or more?). Maybe like Hero’s Rime or something instead. Though maybe it’s a bit much for a normal ability lol. Maybe it could increase ‘everything’ by like 1-2%, i.e all substats, or simultaneously boosting damage, healing taken/given, reducing damage taken and increasing crit rate. I just think it’d be cool if Bard was mostly managing its own support effects while still having something ‘bankable’ for whatever burst meta would emerge in a post-120s-meta world lol.

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Reserved for shortlist of most frequent/detailed discussion points.

Reserved (Miscellaneous).

Are you sure we need 4 posts of space to workshop a handful of potency changes and 1-2 abilities being removed per job?

/depressed motion

Jokes aside, my big one is Summoner, because in theory that job is already where it needs to be, it's just like... only 50% finished.

"All" that needs to happen is:

* Sort the 3 minor summon gems into "categories" (e.g. Red gives highest DPS but is slow casts, Yellow is fully mobile but average DPS, Green is mobile-ish and low damage but has some form of utility). Adjust current summons to fit this.
* Add ~2 extra "sets" of summons. These fit their respective categories, but mechanically work different from Ifrit/Titan/Garuda.
* The set of minor summons is picked at random when the Major Summon ends. ~0 preparation time, work with what you got.

And this would also set the tone for future development: Each expansion can add a new "set" of summons. Oh and please devs, please, please remove the terminally boring Temu Bahamut again. It's the most memey thing, "We got Bahamut at home"-stuff. Why do this? Why not at least upgrade the normal Bahamut into it, if you genuinely think it's a cool ability? Why do this weird, non-interactive, broken, major cycle?

(in my idea, I could also see expansions sometimes adding a major, in which case I'd also say balance them all and pick one at random, though this time you know beforehand which you'll get)

New identity: The "random" caster. Gameplay is about handling random shifts in gameplay, though the overall structure stays the same you still can't react to boss abilities the same way based on which set of minors you got, maybe Ramuh is a single 6s channel instead of Ifrit's two long-casts. Can't just do as-before.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, allegedly, we're getting some manner of broad Job rehauls come 8.0. Putting aside whether we believe this or not or whether it'd likely be for the better or worse, I'm curious what you all would like to see from those reworks for what jobs you're most concerned about.

More specifically, I'd like to know what, if you were to redesign the job in question, would be your Goals, your Design Principles, and even perhaps a sampled Mock-Up of your rework.

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i've long since given up on caring about monk but i'll bite. for a hypothetical overhaul, the bare minimum i'd want to see is just a clear design vision, i.e. what it's supposed to be/do and how that differentiates itself from others in its role. how that may manifest doesn't really matter to me, honestly, but if i had to pick my poison i'd opt for stormblood-era risk/reward gameplay with a touch of more silliness and experimentation added from content like field ops.

with that said though, if i was the one in charge for a monk rework i would destroy the game with my awful design choices i would focus on interesting choices and interactions with what a player can do at any given moment like what was present in previous iterations. more tangible impact and agency for buttons rather than a barely noticeable dip in damage. do i want more evenly spread damage, or bigger spikes of damage? do i want to punch faster, or harder? choices like that come with their own problems of course, but i'm personally fine with shifting away from the one-size-fits-all gameplay of modern XIV... which would require working on more parts of the game than just the jobs, but eh, this is all theorycraft anyway.

i'm trying my best to make this post not read like it's barely concealed TK rotation agenda, but i don't necessarily want that to come back.

For Monk my sole focus would be on providing a system where each of 3 stances has a lot of choices, and it's non-trivial to decide at each step which one you'll want to be using ahead of time. In fact, I think I'd drop most of the remaining job in favor of let's say, 6 choices per stance, so 18 GCD buttons and only buff + healing + gapcloser on top of that, no more.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Are you sure we need 4 posts of space to workshop a handful of potency changes and 1-2 abilities being removed per job?

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Not looking to theorycraft what changes WILL happen, only what changes you all think SHOULD happen, to be clear.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

i'm trying my best to make this post not read like it's barely concealed TK rotation agenda, but i don't necessarily want that to come back.

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Would love to see how that plays out if you're up for a more in-detail mockup.

Playing with a more... extreme (possibly unhinged) version myself, largely as a prototype of a couple different rehauls of the combo system (a completely open one and a consolidated ones where each job has sort of its own geometric system of said consolidation).

Does this involve the current encounter model? Because if I had to propose something it would involve going back to at least the level of depth that HW had, which doesn't exist anymore?

I predict every job will lose a damaging ogcd and then regain a damaging ogcd at level 107 and healers will get a mit or something