Could this help Sage?

I was thinking about a simple change to SGE that would not alter its kit/playstyle and I'm trying to gauge whether it would help the class (and if so how much) or if it's just a dead end.

So if experienced players could give me some feedback whether they think this change could improve sage, would make it unbalanced or would be largely inconsequential that would be great:


Could there be merit in changing Toxicon's/Toxicon II's "Target's damage taken" debuff from 10% to 20%, or perhaps 15% (while keeping the rest of the kit as it is)?


My train of thought was that sage would get a more powerful debuff with high usage frequency/availability that could improve its value in (high level) team fights while still being team-reliant as a downside of the buff. Your team would need to be coordinated to exploit it otherwise its effect might be neglectible.

(Though it would also help sage's personal damage and perhaps indirectly even its survivability because it would be a bit more dangerous in 1v1 duels which could deter players from sinking too many of their resources into chasing them?)

Since sage's shields/heals and team-wide defense capabilities are ok/serviceable but not on the level of AST, WHM or SCH (as far as I'm aware) while the latter three also have support, debuff and/or CC abilities that range from Really Good to Insane on top of that, I thought sage being a constant/perpetual debuffer or poisoner (would fit the toxicon theme) but in a way that works a bit different from SCH could be its niche.
I think this niche would seamlessly integrate into its current playstyle, hence you wouldn't have to take away what makes it fun/defines it while boosting its effectiveness.

The toxicon debuff is AoE but the range is quite small (much smaller than SCH's spread) so you often hit 1 or 2 targets with a charge. I think that would balance out the relatively high frequency of a 20% debuff compared to SCH (but does it actually?).

So whereas AST and WHM lean a bit heavier towards healing than support (with their support still being crazy), SCH and SGE could lean more towards support/utility with more "secondary" (big quotation marks) but still valuable/impactful healing/shielding.


But then again, maybe 20% (or 15%) of a nearly constant (small Aoe) increase to taken damage could be too much and too unbalanced over the course of a whole game?
Or it could be the other way round and it would not do nearly as much as I assume it would?

What do you think? Your ideas are very welcome.

Considering the on-demand, 2-charges, AOE nature of Toxikon (as well as the reactive Toxikon II), +20% damage taken in a 5y radius is absolutely brutal. Damage amplification can escalate very quickly when combined with certain limit breaks or even regular attacks.

If Sage were to be buffed, other things may be better than to increase the Toxikon amplifier. Adjustments to Pneuma's recast, an additional action that allows for more AOE support (perhaps the new Philosophia at a short duration) and some adjustments on the damage values could work. Also Psyche's damage lock-in still takes quite some time for the damage it does.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Considering the on-demand, 2-charges, AOE nature of Toxikon (as well as the reactive Toxikon II), +20% damage taken in a 5y radius is absolutely brutal. Damage amplification can escalate very quickly when combined with certain limit breaks or even regular attacks.

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Thank you for your feedback!
That was what I was worried about so it's good to get some perspective on that.
I had an idea for a more toned down version where only Toxicon II gives a 20% increased damage debuff on the primary target and the secondary targets hit by the AoE get the old 10%, mirroring the 8k/4k damage profile. Not sure if this would still be too much though.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

If Sage were to be buffed, other things may be better than to increase the Toxikon amplifier. Adjustments to Pneuma's recast, an additional action that allows for more AOE support (perhaps the new Philosophia at a short duration) and some adjustments on the damage values could work. Also Psyche's damage lock-in still takes quite some time for the damage it does.

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I agree with those ideas. Especially something like Philosophia could really help and Psyche getting a faster animation would do so much already. I like that you can hold it for more deliberate use but it takes so long to play out that it's easy to react to.
What would you suggest in terms of Pneuma's recast timer?
I also think that sage's LB could benefit from some more polish but on the spot I don't know what would be a good way to go about it.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

Thank you for your feedback!
That was what I was worried about so it's good to get some perspective on that.
I had an idea for a more toned down version where only Toxicon II gives a 20% increased damage debuff on the primary target and the secondary targets hit by the AoE get the old 10%, mirroring the 8k/4k damage profile. Not sure if this would still be too much though.



I agree with those ideas. Especially something like Philosophia could really help and Psyche getting a faster animation would do so much already. I like that you can hold it for more deliberate use but it takes so long to play out that it's easy to react to.
What would you suggest in terms of Pneuma's recast timer?
I also think that sage's LB could benefit from some more polish but on the spot I don't know what would be a good way to go about it.

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1.) The presence of a 20% vulnerability up, regardless of how it is achieved, is incredibly painful because that would amplify damage to essentially having a 6th player (5 x 20%) when bursting. The increased damage on Toxikon II is enough if you ask me, considering how well you can maintain the debuff between Toxikon and Toxikon II.

2.) I'd be conservative and try 24-25s on the recast for Pneuma in a world without Philosophia and go from there, after all it isn't just a shielding tool but also a 12000 AOE damage laser. The Limit Break itself is arguably quite strong given point-hold situations, so if you buffed this (in recast at least) it would make triple healer compositions (Pure Healer + SCH SGE) morbidly difficult to deal with and defeat the point of tanks.

I don't think Sage has an issue in the damage department, the issue i find on SGE is that it's nowhere near close the other 3 healers to supporting their team efficently without swapping your kardia around and losing your mind.

I feel like what would fix Sage would be to have Philosophia, just like in PVE, where the kardia effect gets amplified to the whole team. I feel like that's what sage needs on PvP as well.