so about the Twelve

SPOILERS FOR ENDWALKER

Diddn't know if its been long enough since then to really warrant the spoiler, but figured the subject was big enough.

Was doing the heal role quest for DT and saw an NPC "Thank the Twelve" and it made me think about something...

With the Twelve gone after the alliance raid, what happens with all of the prayers to them from others around the planet? If another world ending event were to happen on the scale of the final days/Bahamut attacking and the people of Etheris started praying to their diety for help.... would that be enough to potentially make a primal out of them?

I know we have a "New" way of summoning that is different now, but if we diddn't end up telling the realm collectively that those deitys are gone, it would just take a lot of belief in a single being and aether to summon a primal of like, Byregot for instance, yeah? Is that not what happened with Louisoix at Cartenau when he became Phoenix? Prayer for him and the hope to save us and a bunch of aether?

I doubt this would come up in the MSQ ever, but just a random thought that popped into my head when hearing someone mention that phrase.

We're probably clear of needing the spoilers in responding.

The apparatus they left at the end of the storyline does effectively act as a mirror, reflecting the energy form prayers to them back out at the world, so there's not really a gap in that part of things.

As for 'if you could summon a primal out of them'... well, yeah. Remember, we've fought primals of a historical king, an animist faith's totemic animal,and an impossible machine that a grouop was convinced could work, and that was all in one expansion. Absolutely you could summon a primal of one if so inclined. In fact, it already happened; Ramuh is just a local interpretation of Rhalgr, as confirmed by Rhalgr himself.

It's actually never been 100% stated or clear what Louisoix did with the Twelve to try to stop Bahamut; the assumption of 'tried to summon the Twelve, failed' is a commonly-held one, but not actually confirmed, or even to the best of my knowledge stated at any point in-game.

There was also that story arc back in ARR with that group of Ala Mhigan refugee youths in Thanalan who Lahabrea had influenced and instructed how to summon a Primal version of Rhalgr as well - luckily though the player's character managed to put a stop to that before the summoning was actually carried out , and they promised they'd never go through with it again (or the player killed the ones who were going to, I can't remember anymore it was so long ago).

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

It's actually never been 100% stated or clear what Louisoix did with the Twelve to try to stop Bahamut; the assumption of 'tried to summon the Twelve, failed' is a commonly-held one, but not actually confirmed, or even to the best of my knowledge stated at any point in-game.

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Maybe not 100% a character absolutely stating it as a fact, but Gaius does mention it in-game in his (in)famous speech:

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Are the "Twelve" otherwise engaged? I was given to understand they were your protectors. If you truly believe them your guardians, why do you not repeat the trick that served you so well at Carteneau, and call them down? They will answer--so long as you lavish them with crystals and gorge them on aether. Your gods are no different than those of the beasts--eikons every one. Accept but this, and you will see how Eorzea's faith is bleeding the land dry.

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The aether he had left over from Louisoix's Twelve summoning attempt combined with the subconscious will of Eorzeans is also what made Phoenix IIRC and the lore book mentions that it has all the hallmarks of a primal summoning based on what we know. He was also potentially successful in partially summoning Althyk and that could explain how he sent 1.0 WoL 5 years into the future.

Out-of-game, the lore book directly describes Louisoix's attempt as a summoning.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Out-of-game, the lore book directly describes Louisoix's attempt as a summoning.

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Actually, it doesn't. I checked this.

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Just when allhope seemed lost amidst the chaos and destruction, the land came alive and showed signs of an inexplicable rebirth. The survivors of the Calamity believe that Louisoix's invocation of the Twelve's power was the driving force which vanquished Bahamut, and could not be described as anything other than a miracle of the gods.

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It's only ever described as 'invoking', and an earlier page specifically calls it out as completely different to primal summoning, although it doesn't say how.

I'm always willing to hear out onorthodox experts, but I would argue Gaius is not one in this case.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

There was also that story arc back in ARR with that group of Ala Mhigan refugee youths in Thanalan who Lahabrea had influenced and instructed how to summon a Primal version of Rhalgr as well - luckily though the player's character managed to put a stop to that before the summoning was actually carried out , and they promised they'd never go through with it again (or the player killed the ones who were going to, I can't remember anymore it was so long ago).

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Yeah, this is one I've brought up a few times; the Ascians would know if this would work, and wouldn't pursue it if it didn't, so there's a fair assumption that they could've summoned Rhalgr if not stopped. Granted, the circumstances are entirely different now in a lot of ways.

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Originally Posted by Waning of the Sixth Sun

But the celebration proved short-lived, as it soon became clear that van Darnus's death had not served to slow Dalamud's descent. Impact was imminent. The Seventh Umbral Era was about to begin. An age of suffering. No course remained...save one. To perform a summoning not unlike those practiced by the Beast Tribes, yet on a far grander scale. To seek the power of the Twelve. The price of such a deed would be great and could have grave consequences for the planet, but the alliance could not deny my reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Tales from the Calamity: The Walker's Path

Gradually, the conversation slowed. No longer could they postpone the matter at hand, for the hour of reckoning was upon them. “So...what now?” Minfilia began.

Louisoix shook his head. “Now we must part ways. Where I go, you cannot follow.”

The Archon’s plan was to summon the Twelve using forbidden arts known only to him. With their combined strength, he was certain that he could prevent the fall of the lesser moon. Such strength, however, posed a threat in itself. Should Eorzea’s patron deities assume physical form, it seemed more than likely that they would be prone to the same appetites as the gods of the beastmen. Should that prove the case, their mere presence would bleed the land of life. And so Louisoix would instead call upon a fraction of the Twelve’s power—enough to stay Dalamud’s descent, and no more.

“It seems a fine balance to strike. Are you certain you can do it?”

Louisoix’s voice was distant. “Mayhap not. But the Twelve cannot be suffered to set foot upon Eorzean soil.” And then, head bowed, he told her the rest.

No. Minfilia shivered, suddenly feeling weak and cold. She had to fight the urge to rub her arms. “Is there truly no other way?”

“None half as reliable.” He placed a hand on her shoulder. “If I do not return, the others will look to you. You must be prepared to lead them.”

But I am not ready. She turned away, closing her eyes in a bid to stem the tears. “Do they know what you intend?”

“They know enough.” He stepped forward. “Darker days lie ahead. But know that where there is darkness, there will always be light.” His voice was soft and reassuring. A father’s voice. “You will see the truth of this, Minfilia, when one who bears the light comes to stand before you. One who is gifted, like you. Together, you will greet the dawn.”

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Originally Posted by Tales from the Calamity: The Walker's Path (JP)

月の衛星「ダラガブ」の落下を阻止するため、「エオルゼア十二神」を呼ぶ「神降ろし」を断行する。それは蛮神召喚とほぼ同義の禁忌の術であり、最悪の場合、エオルゼアの民すべてが十二神の「テンパード」になりかねない。これを阻止するための方法は、ただひとつ。
In order to prevent the lunar satellite Dalamud from falling, he would carry out a summoning (god-descent) to summon the Twelve deities of Eorzea. This forbidden art, almost synonymous with primal summoning, could, in the worst case scenario, lead to all of Eorzea's people becoming "Tempered" by the Twelve. There was only one way to prevent this.

十二神の顕現を押しとどめ、その力のみを発現させること。そのために、召喚者たるルイゾワ自身が術の途上で自ら命を絶ち、十二神の蛮神化を阻止すると同時に、二度と「神降ろし」が行われぬようにする……。
He would prevent Twelve from manifesting physically, permitting only their power to manifest. To achieve this, Louisoix, the summoner, would take his own life in the middle of the ritual, preventing the Twelve from becoming primals and thus preventing the ritual from being imitated...

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Originally Posted by Tales from the Calamity: The Walker's Path (FR)

Il lui expliqua que pour empêcher la chute du satellite Dalamud, il était nécessaire d’utiliser le pouvoir des Douze. Cependant, faire appel à ces divinités était comme invoquer une dizaine de Primordiaux d’un coup en Éorzéa, et il n’était pas exclu que les habitants subissent leur influence et deviennent des subjugués.
He explained to her that to prevent the fall of the satellite known as Dalamud, it was necessary to use the power of the Twelve. However, calling upon these deities was like summoning a dozen Primals at once, and it was not impossible that the realm's inhabitants would be influenced by them; tempered.

D’après Louisoix, la seule solution possible consistait à emprunter leur force tout en empêchant qu’ils se manifestent ici-bas. Pour cela, l’invocateur devrait interrompre son sortilège juste avant que les dieux ne se matérialisent... ce qui lui en coûterait la vie.
According to Louisoix, the only possible solution was to borrow their strength while preventing them from manifesting on this plane. To do this, the summoner would have to interrupt his spell just before the gods materialized... which would cost him his life.

Minfilia n’en crut pas ses oreilles. Cet homme qu’elle respectait plus que tout au monde venait de lui dire qu’il allait se sacrifier.
Minfilia could not believe her ears. This man she respected more than anything in the world had just told her that he was going to sacrifice himself.

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Originally Posted by Tales from the Calamity: The Walker's Path (DE)

Der Anführer der Exegeten eröffnete ihr, zu welch drastischem, nie zuvor gewagten Mittel er sich entschlossen hatte: der Beschwörung der Zwölf. Das Ritual ähnelte einer Primae-Beschwörung und barg die Gefahr, alle Bewohner Eorzeas in von den Zwölf Besessene zu verwandeln. Er würde die Kraft der Götter kanalisieren müssen, ohne ihnen Gelegenheit zu geben, sich körperlich zu manifestieren. Dazu gab es nur einen Weg: die Eliminierung des Mediums, kurz bevor dies geschah.
The leader of the exegetes revealed to her the drastic, never-before-dared measure he had decided on: the summoning of the Twelve. The ritual was similar to a primal summoning and carried the risk of turning all the inhabitants of Eorzea into those tempered by Twelve. He would have to channel the power of the gods without giving them the opportunity to manifest themselves physically. There was only one way to do this: eliminating the medium shortly before this happened.

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Louisoix (Living on a Prayer)
I would have you become the beacon to summon forth the Twelve─aye, the guardian deities of Eorzea.
Faith in the Twelve is strong in this land. By channeling that faith through prayer, we should be able to call upon their aid.

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Papalymo (Living on a Prayer)
Summoning deities requires an ungodly amount of aether, after all. And having manifested, sustaining even a single deity's corporeal form costs the land dearly─as you've seen for yourself. Yet here we are, seeking to summon no fewer than twelve of them!

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Thancred (Living on a Prayer)
As you well know, aether is the source of all life. Bereft of its blessing, Eorzea would be naught but a dried-up husk of a realm. By whatever name they are called, gods drink of the land's aether for their sustenance. The Twelve are no different. Summoning them would be tantamount to bleeding the life out of the land. Yet without their aid, Eorzea is most assuredly doomed.

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/10characters

The only thread that doesn’t seem to have been tied up properly is what essence of oschon deryk retains. Do prayers to oschon (which admittedly isn’t much of a problem he isn’t one of the more worshiped members of the 12 in the modern day) still have a tangible effect on deryk

I really hope they actually do something with deryk rather than just leaving him as an Easter egg during some of the holiday events

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Actually, it doesn't. I checked this.

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The section on Phoenix specifically says “summon the Twelve” twice, as does a section that you mentioned that’s earlier in the book, directly comparing it to primals. We also know that the aether from the failed summoning contributed to Phoenix, who is an actual primal.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

It's only ever described as 'invoking', and an earlier page specifically calls it out as completely different to primal summoning, although it doesn't say how.

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Louisoix’s claims do not match reality. He claims he was going to “entreat” the Twelve but everything else including the passage leading into it matches with primal summoning and we know from the raid that they don’t interfere.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'm always willing to hear out onorthodox experts, but I would argue Gaius is not one in this case.

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I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss Gaius. He and Nero made/refurbished a whole machina devoted to the mechanics of primal summoning, and Gaius had conquered swaths of Ilsabard and seems to have prior experience with primals. He may be just as experienced as we are on the matter and at the time of his speech, he definitely has much more experience.

I double-checked and the Twelve themselves also said in-game that Louisoix summoned primals, which is as close to the real source that you can get.

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Originally Posted by G’raha Tia

But...what of the gods who were summoned during the Calamity?
The ones Master Louisoix called forth to protect the realm...

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Originally Posted by Nald’thal

That was not us, but a primal born of your fervent prayers for salvation.

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