Feedback and suggestions for Endwalker Dragoon

After trying out dragoon on extreme contents and with personal past experience with other melee DPS and tanks. It feels like dragoon has been left behind and not following the other melee progressive expansion changes. Personally even though i love pressing a lot of its ogcds while juggling with its gcds, i think it is under-rewarding for such a play style.

For example, ninja has removed its dots and huton buff to focus more on mudra and its ogcds, Samurai has nerfed hakagure and remove kaiten to focus more on ogcds, dark knight has removed darkside and compensated with more ogcds. But current dragoon has 15 OGCDS to spam in double weave including buffs. And even with maintaining all its buff like lance charge, life surge, power surge and battle litany while pushing the rotation properly. it's dps still falls short compared to reaper whom also has only 1 party buff, no attack buffs to maintain or activate, only 1 debuff to look out for, only 4 ogcd hotkeys including party buff(where dragoon has 8 ogcd hotkey including buffs and not including same hotkey combo swaps like geirskolgul), have the basic 1-2-3 combo gcds which are not hard to miss (compared to dragoons infinite gcd rotation chain that you cant break) and still the dps is not rewarding and higher compare to reaper.

These are my suggestions without compromising the current core gameplay of dragoon.
- Like removing life surge and its effect (guarantee critical damage and absorbs HP) should just be included in drakesbane (since theres 2 charge and it is always used either on heaven's trust, drakesbane or coerthan torment if during AOE usage) and coerthean torment. There are times where since we have to dodge mechanics, carefully not screw up the gcds while double weave alot gcds that life surge is accidentally turned on at the wrong time to be used on the wrong next gcd. Its my personal skill issue but i would believe there are other dragoons out there which has this problem once in a while.
- removing lance charge and just reduce Geirskogul cooldown so there will be dps increase while not compromising the "button spamming" gameplay of dragoon.
- I personally think dragoon is much more challenging to play than reaper, i would suggest dragoon's dps should be higher than reaper IF and only IF played and maintained rotation properly/consistently. Hence, even if the above two points included and the dps is only barely the same as reaper, a buff for ALL dragoon skills potency is required. To reward dragoon for maintaining the infinite gcd rotations, double weaving all its ogcds and everything else in order to have good dps. This will be better than simplifying and changing the already clustered dragoon playstyle which some people like (or what is currently intended).

With the current playstyle of dragoon, the dps should feel rewarding and higher for playing it right. Unless SE wants to change dragoon's gameplay again.

Some other dragoons might not be happy about is that Dragon fire's dive and stardive animation lock is dangerous to use on certain game mechanics like during a "freeze" mechanic where we have to keep moving around. I have had myself frozen some few times while busily spamming every button while moving my analog and it happen to use either those 2 skill where it registered me as not moving hence got frozen by the mechanic. I have no good suggestion for this, maybe the one suggestion i would give is just to remove the animation lock altogether but it might not be the best solution. I dont know, i hope SE can help with this or if not then we just have to get used to it and be careful. Just seemed a bit unfair that all other melee class don't have to worry of such a thing while dps-ing while dragoons do.

I also think feint doesn’t need an extended duration at lvl 98. its non-upgraded duration is fine. I would suggest all melee's lvl 98 change to North Wind's duration increase from 10 to 15 instead, as feint is mostly used on 1 enemy skill cast and doesnt need 5 second longer. Where with the current increase of bullet hell mechanics in dawntrail, the additional 5 seconds for directionals of north wind would be more appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Seirinz

[...] it's dps still falls short compared to reaper [...] [...] i would suggest dragoon's dps should be higher than reaper IF and only IF played and maintained rotation properly/consistently[...]

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Balance tends to be a bit weird at the beginning of an expansion. DRG is meant to have lower personal damage than RPR because the latter has a unique weaker 3% buff, but in turn DRG provides a stronger one in Battle Litany.

I don't think DRG should be compared solely to RPR but the whole melee and PCT/BLM damage group. The jobs with a 5% buff should be higher in the rDPS scale, or the damage they provide plus how much their buff affects the party, whereas those without a buff should be higher in the aDPS, or how well they benefit from others' buffs, and personal damage scale. RPR should be a small outlier with higher personal damage than the first group and higher rDPS than the second group. Sort of in between.

While we could agree that job complexity could, to an extent, be taken into account when dealing damage, I also believe it's a dangerous proposition. The majority of jobs are already very simple, and thus would be punished in one way or another.

Instead, jobs should have a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling. As a general rule of thumb, you should be able to understand and perform at a 85-90% with a job without having to play many hours while still leaving a final 10-15% for those wanting to squeeze extra damage and optimization. This way everyone, both casual and hardcore, can enjoy them. It's alright if these percentages go up or down a bit on a job by job basis though, as long as the general idea is kept intact.

SMN and caster mains didn't ask for that job's rotation to be reduced to spamming one button. It would be entirely arbitrary if complexity alone would be the deciding factor, because the devs could lobotomize another random job next, and it could very well be DRG. I do agree that complexity or other specific factors could influence it a little bit though. Following your example, if we think that RPR is too simple compared to another job like DRG, then perhaps the solution would be to add a little extra to RPR.

In conclusion, DRG should have higher rDPS than RPR but lower personal damage. This is considering 8-people content though, as RPR was quite above DRG and most other jobs in Criterion dungeons, for instance, but I don't think the developers will ever balance with that in mind. And that's fine, it's alright for jobs to have smaller niches sometimes, as does DRG when it comes to 2-target cleave, whether spread or close.

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Originally Posted by Seirinz

Like removing life surge and its effect (guarantee critical damage and absorbs HP) should just be included in drakesbane (since theres 2 charge and it is always used either on heaven's trust, drakesbane or coerthan torment if during AOE usage) and coerthean torment.

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Making Life Surge a passive element of the rotation would exacerbate one of the biggest issues with DT DRG, imho, which is the lack of a filler. We do literally nothing between bursts besides pressing High Jump + MD every 30 seconds.

Life Surge has several intricacies in its use and while it's still a simple ability, it's the only oGCD in our arsenal that affects the GCDs. Each burst will be a tiny bit different in execution due to Life Surge requiring to be used before specific GCDs because of our rotation's loop not being a multiple of 30s.

If Life Surge was to be removed, it should be turned into some kind of GCD with two charges on a 20s cooldown that provides a scale. This way, we'd both have extra filler and thought during burst. Mirage Dive could also grant a scale and deal AoE damage, thus fixing it and allowing it to interact with the gauge.

I still think the filler would need a tiny bit more since we have basically no gauge right now, but it'd be a good start.

Wyrmwind Thrust is the only other oGCD to interact with GCDs in any way but DRG lost a lot of mechanical interaction since most actions now just deal damage without any further consideration or rotational thought.

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Originally Posted by Seirinz

removing lance charge and just reduce Geirskogul cooldown so there will be dps increase while not compromising the "button spamming" gameplay of dragoon.

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Many players, especially on the JP side, are advocating for Lance Charge's effect to be baked into GSK since the former just raises damage done.

I think there's several options as to what could be done with LC:

1 - Keep the functionality as it is, but turn the icon and animation into Dragon Sight for thematic purposes. This option would just be a cosmetic change.

2 - Merge LC with GSK, raising the latter's damage up to 25 or 30%. Again, nothing would fundamentally change here, but we'd lose one action, which could be a problem later down the line considering how many end up being removed for nothing.

3 - Do one of the above, but also return Dragon Sight as some kind of gauge generator with a 60-120s cooldown. It could give us an extra LotD when pressed, for instance.

4 - Do as you say and make GSK a 30s cooldown. This would make our damage profile more spread instead of bursty while also improving the filler. However, this would lead to either removing LC and/or adjusting (reducing) some potencies, as otherwise we'd be too strong with a 66% uptime 15% damage up buff that also grants 2500+ oGCD potency every 30s. This could create some backlash, however, as many players believe that DRG's potencies are bad due to their basic numbers because they don't take into account that we deal almost 40% more damage when LC + GSK are up.

The devs could also keep LC and instead have GSK provide no damage buff, similar to how it worked in EW.

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Originally Posted by Seirinz

Some other dragoons might not be happy about is that Dragon fire's dive and stardive animation lock is dangerous to use on certain game mechanics like during a "freeze"

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This specific situation you describe doesn't happen often, in my experience. High Jump's animation lock can be cancelled if you manually jump while using it, so it's just Dragonfire Dive and Stardiver that actually lock you in place. Jump animation locks are part of the identity of DRG, and I think they should stay as they are*. We've already lost two of them, HJ no longer moves you and Starcross is not a real jump either. We could argue whether we should be rewarded or punished for it considering other jobs don't deal with it but that'd be a different matter. The animation lock can usually be worked around when it's truly needed by shifting the position of oGCDs in the rotation and STD is also quite flexible in this regard, although less than EW due to STC, because of having no true cooldown.

Speaking of which, I believe STD should be the oGCD with the highest potency due to it being a single weave but for some reason the devs want STC to be the one above. Perhaps because it's a capstone ability but this rule doesn't extend to many other jobs whose capstones are not their strongest move.

*Sadly, there's several JP players asking for a further reduction of the animation lock of HJ, DFD and STD.


Having a Feint duration of 15s helps with covering more raid damage or using it just before burst to avoid doing so during it. The latter reason is the rationale followed by the devs on increasing the duration. I think it's uninteresting to reach level 98 to get "maintenance" traits like these instead of something more interesting but it's what it is.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

DRG is meant to have lower personal damage than RPR because the latter has a unique weaker 3% buff, but in turn DRG provides a stronger one in Battle Litany.

if we think that RPR is too simple compared to another job like DRG, then perhaps the solution would be to add a little extra to RPR.

In conclusion, DRG should have higher rDPS than RPR but lower personal damage. This is considering 8-people content though, as RPR was quite above DRG and most other jobs in Criterion dungeons, for instance, And that's fine, it's alright for jobs to have smaller niches sometimes, as does DRG when it comes to 2-target cleave, whether spread or close.

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I would agree reaper should have higher rDPS than dragoon, IF dragoon was what it was back in ARR and HW or just plain simpler to play. Make the playstyle simple but give rDPS an increase. But it is a class that has evolved from a normal 1-2-3 combo class to a infinite chained gcd class. Which is the only class that has such complexity and one that cannot messed up rotations otherwise the dps loss is unforgiving. Now, im not saying dragoon should be dumb down, in fact i personally find this unique and amazing. Im saying it should be rewarding. I dont think dragoon should be compared to PCT/blm because it is a whole different play style in a sense they need to stop moving and take the time to cast, while we RPR and dragoon just lay out instant damages without casting with more freedom of moving. At most maybe monk should be considered to be compared as they also have party buff and is not a fully greed class like blm or whats closer to a melee, a sam. Which I also understand that the balance between rDPS and personal DPS, hence it is fine if dragoon is lower than SAM. But the complexity for dragoon has evolved a lot through out the years. To the point that the complexity doesnt reward playing it. Most people would only play a class for DPS numbers, but there are only a small handful of people that would play such a complex class just because they like dragoon. Not much people would enjoy playing a class that is complex and unable to push the numbers while only being a support, as i said it doesnt feel rewarding.

And i also do not think anyone would like to play a class that would become more difficult nor do i think SE would make a class more difficult. Seems to be in SE's culture to always made it more easier to play but more challenging in other aspects, hence making reaper more difficult might not be possible. But if the talk about personal and rDPS is the case. The i think it would be better for reaper to be lower in personal DPS and buff its rDPS buffs. that way it keeps its core gameplay without touching anything else while bringing a sense of fairness. Or, it would also just be better to lower drgs rDPS buff and increase potency DPS while increasing reapers rDPS buffs.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Making Life Surge a passive element of the rotation would exacerbate one of the biggest issues with DT DRG, imho, which is the lack of a filler. We do literally nothing between bursts besides pressing High Jump + MD every 30 seconds.

If Life Surge was to be removed, it should be turned into some kind of GCD with two charges on a 20s cooldown that provides a scale. Mirage Dive could also grant a scale and deal AoE damage, thus fixing it and allowing it to interact with the gauge.

4 - Do as you say and make GSK a 30s cooldown. This would make our damage profile more spread instead of bursty while also improving the filler. However, this would lead to either removing LC and/or adjusting (reducing) some potencies, as otherwise we'd be too strong with a 66% uptime 15% damage up buff that also grants 2500+ oGCD potency every 30s. This could create some backlash, however, as many players believe that DRG's potencies are bad due to their basic numbers because they don't take into account that we deal almost 40% more damage when LC + GSK are up.

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As you said, If we remove LC, we lose 1 button to press especially since DRG already has the lack of filler after burst. Hence was the reason why i suggest GSK to be reduced in the CD since activating GSK allows for a total of 6 oGCD including GSK itself, STD, 3 nostrond and starcross, this alone improves the amount of filler for DRGs rotation, overall DPS and improve the sense of gameplay style without compromising the complexity of the DRG gameplay. the CD reduction doesnt have to be from 60 to 30. it can be reduced to 45 instead. Still is a huge DPS boost.

It is a good idea to improve STD potency as you mentioned as i also agree its a single weave to use it. And as you said, turn into some kind of GCD with two charges on a 20s cooldown that provides a scale works just fine as well.

Reason why i mentioned the removing of these 2 skills was also because as a controller player. having 8 ocgds hotkey and 8 gcd hotkeys for controller players like me is really not comfortable to maintain or initiate. Removing 2 oGDC hotkeys while increasing the other oGCD frequency would give us more breathing air to maneuver. Its not that its not do-able, its just not smooth to play with as it would on keyboard and mouse.

SE can and i also think should bring back more complexity on rotations or gauge management. But i personally think they need to remove some hotkeys to make room for the complexity, not just by having more buttons to add complexity. It just adds inconvenience.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

This specific situation you describe doesn't happen often, in my experience. High Jump's animation lock can be cancelled if you manually jump while using it, so it's just Dragonfire Dive and Stardiver that actually lock you in place. Jump animation locks are part of the identity of DRG, and I think they should stay as they are*. We've already lost two of them, HJ no longer moves you and Starcross is not a real jump either. We could argue whether we should be rewarded or punished for it considering other jobs don't deal with it but that'd be a different matter. The animation lock can usually be worked around when it's truly needed by shifting the position of oGCDs in the rotation and STD is also quite flexible in this regard, although less than EW due to STC, because of having no true cooldown.

*Sadly, there's several JP players asking for a further reduction of the animation lock of HJ, DFD and STD.

Having a Feint duration of 15s helps with covering more raid damage or using it just before burst to avoid doing so during it. The latter reason is the rationale followed by the devs on increasing the duration. I think it's uninteresting to reach level 98 to get "maintenance" traits like these instead of something more interesting but it's what it is.

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The situation i mentioned is only 1 example. There are other examples as well like when theres an AOE trajectory thats on the DRG you have to move but when you accidentally spam ur STD or DFD during rotation and the trajectory pops out, you lose a few sec to move away due to animation lock leaving you having to take the dmg or if the goal is to push DPS as much as possible in someone's mind, they have no choice but to withheld these 2 skills for a few second till they are out of harms ways before using them where in terms of DPS is a loss in the long run if not used as soon as possible to let CD run.

Is it possible instead to still move during these animations? like have an animation where after the dive, we choose where we land instead of landing on the same spot where we jump from.

I understand feint helps with covering raid dmg but it isnt more as it increase duration only and not reduction percentage. Its original 10 second is enough to be slipped in between 3 gcds, it doen't need 5 more sec or 2 more gcd to slip in this oGCD skill. But wouldn't it make more sense where SE is going down the direction of more bullet hell, more aoe skills, more mechanics that require a lot more movements for the tank (tanks moves making boss moves) and melee DPS (as displayed in most extremes and dungeons in Dawntrail) to instead increase the duration of True North by 5 more second instead of feint especially for the directional melees?