Healer role design change?

Healer as a role seems to have very diminishing value the later in the game you go..to the point of current ultimates being cleared without a healer or even less than recommended.

I think healers should be given more of a support role philosophy.

Obviously damage is not strong or constant enough to warrant a lot of healing...and tanks have heals that are comparable to a healer.

Either give healer's more unique utility options, like haste, damage up, crit up, buff timer extensions etc.

or give enemies more debilitating statuses that only a healer can cure/mitigate.

1) More damage and dmg you cant prep or know in advance:
a) Damage over time, so that healing is req all the time.
b) Boss target random player and use x ability (random dmg).
2) Only healers should have ress!
3) More to dispell.

Healers should be able to use their full toolkit,
and not just spend majority of the time useing ST dps and OFFGCD when dmgs hits..

This will make it so healers have to heal more often.
They have to use their full toolkit -> this prevent healers to just spam their ST and offgcd when dmg hits.
Remove heal-dps check. however healers should still dps during downtime.

Here are some general thoughts I have on what I'd like to see in the future:

1. Rebalance DPS values between Healers and Tanks to be much closer.
- Healers are currently last in line to get their gear in many premades groups. This would at least allow healers to be interchangeable with tanks in terms of gear priority.

2. Rework the cleansable debuff UI to make cleansable debuffs far more visible, and make cleansing a more common choice.
- Introducing more examples of debuffs that can be removed through Esuna would not only create more opportunities for healers to engage with a non-DPS tool, but would also increase the value of cleansing as utility. The key here is that more debuffs should create choices rather than ultimatums. I'd also like to see White Mage get an OGCD AoE Esuna on a 90 or 120 second cooldown if we were to see these far more frequently as this would allow White Mage to actually compete with utility like Expedient or the healing check negation of Macrocosmos. I know AoE Esuna was a Scholar thing, but Scholar already has Expedient, and I personally feel AoE Esuna is far more a White Mage tool than a Scholar one.

Examples of cleansable debuffs we could stand to use often:

Disease/Reduced Immunity
- Reduces HP recovered. Having something like a 50% healing reduction creates an environment where the healer can choose to heal through it, but removing it might make healing checks easier. Disease also applies a reduced movement speed effect, though not as severe as Heavy, while Reduced Immunity is just reduced healing.

Misery
- This increases the amount of damage taken by the party. Similar to the Disease example and can be ignored through proper mitigation and barrier application, but can also be cleansed for a safer strategy.

Damage Down
- If it can be removed through Esuna, it can be a DPS gain to spend a GCD removing a DPS's attack down. If we change current examples of attack down received through failed mechanics to be cleansable, this also allows healers to better correct their teammate's mistakes, but also doesn't kill the player if left untouched, so the healer can focus on healing if it's big, messy situation.

Poison/Bleed/Frostbite/Pollen/Windbite
- With the increased use of DoTs that must be healed through, making those heavy DoTs removable with Esuna may not be necessary, as again it can be healed through, but offers to opportunity to make the job easier, particularly if a TB DoT goes unmitigated.

Doom/Necrosis*
- I would change all instances of Doom and Necrosis to to removable through either Esuna or by healing the target to full HP. If you create the choice, it allows the healer to decide which angle is easiest to accomplish. This means you could increase the frequency of these debuffs being used on the party without creating a necessity to use Esuna every time.

3. More frequent appearance of chip damage occurring in all forms of content.
- We've gotten to a point where too much of a fight is waiting for a boss to execute on avoidable mechanics and doing nothing else. Others have mentioned boss auto-attacks while casting as well as possibly returning critical hit autos, but there are other solutions as well. Create orbs that must be popped, towers that must be stood in, or AoE/random targetted damage taken from external sources like targetable adds. The damage from these, especially in environments like dungeons, doesn't have to be a lot. Maybe someone takes around 10%-20% of their max HP from these unmitigated, but occur once per 10-15 seconds or so.

4. Approach healers the the same way tanks are handled.
- While there's something to be said about tank homogenization as well, healers are constantly coddled when tanking is far more challenging since tanks often have entire mechanics that only they have to resolve. Healers should have a similar ratio of offensive actions to healing actions that tanks have for offensive actions to mitigation actions. You can still have 1 more simple healer and 1 more complex healer like the tanks, but that shouldn't mean 60% of your actions are whatever flavor of Glare each job is sentenced to.

Overall, we can start with one thing at a time, let people become comfortable with that change, and gradually work on the others. Start with a healer kit rework and the improved debuff visibility, and gradually introduce more damage and debuff application into all difficulty thresholds until we strike a healthy balance for the average player.

They were designed from the ground up to primarily deal damage.
Unless all damage spells are removed, this will remain the case. The design team should just lean back into it and give them proper damage rotations.. 95% of the healer spells are heals but we still roll our foreheads over the damage button. Might as well make it more enjoyable, no?

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

1) More damage and dmg you cant prep or know in advance:

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easy just break away from scripted encounters and start to randomize bosses more.

alternatively slow down the power creep. part of the problem is the way new content it released at an ilevel that many players are already 15-20 levels higher than. so healers already over heal and everyone else already takes less than intended damage.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

2. Rework the cleansable debuff UI to make cleansable debuffs far more visible, and make cleansing a more common choice..

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This would only work if they made those cleansable debuffs more impactfull. the reason noone bothers with Esuna even when they can is because that paralysis or poision effect on a player only lasts ~5 seconds anyway. and in many cases those poisons cant even outpace the passive hp regen on a tank.. or a paralysis effect thats highly likely to wear off before it even procs once.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

They were designed from the ground up to primarily deal damage.

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nope they were designed to heal. the only reason they had DPS spells at all was for solo play. thats why they never accounted for healer damage in dps checks and stuff..

the issue being they dont want players to get too hurt, because it puts too much pressure and stress on healers and they wont play the role or something..

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Originally Posted by Dzian

This would only work if they made those cleansable debuffs more impactfull. the reason noone bothers with Esuna even when they can is because that paralysis or poision effect on a player only lasts ~5 seconds anyway. and in many cases those poisons cant even outpace the passive hp regen on a tank.. or a paralysis effect thats highly likely to wear off before it even procs once.

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You mean like that list I posted directly below that point in my last post? Also poison/bleed/other DoTs are impactful in savage at least.

There's absolutely a fundamental disconnect between the the way the job designers feel that healers should be played and the way that the battle design team incorporate healing into their fights.

The job design team seem to take a step forward with things like the current Lily system and Macrocosmos, but then completely and inexplicably drop the ball with things such as forgetting to update said Lily system with Endwalker's increased level cap and Glare III.

Be it ineptitude or just being stretched too thin, I've got no hope of them fixing things until either Yoshi/SE get start writing cheques and hiring or key people start getting replaced.

Healing is going to continue it's slide towards increasingly unanimous negativity until either the job or battle design teams makes a significant adjustment IMO.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

nope they were designed to heal. the only reason they had DPS spells at all was for solo play. thats why they never accounted for healer damage in dps checks and stuff..

the issue being they dont want players to get too hurt, because it puts too much pressure and stress on healers and they wont play the role or something..

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This take on healers is entirely at odds with how RPGs are designed. It's a surface-level, strict trinitarian view that makes zero sense when you take the existence of skill gaps and combat encounters ending with damage output into account.

"Only for solo play", good lord.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

There's absolutely a fundamental disconnect between the the way the job designers feel that healers should be played and the way that the battle design team incorporate healing into their fights.

The job design team seem to take a step forward with things like the current Lily system and Macrocosmos, but then completely and inexplicably drop the ball with things such as forgetting to update said Lily system with Endwalker's increased level cap and Glare III.

Be it ineptitude or just being stretched too thin, I've got no hope of them fixing things until either Yoshi/SE get start writing cheques and hiring or key people start getting replaced.

Healing is going to continue it's slide towards increasingly unanimous negativity until either the job or battle design teams makes a significant adjustment IMO.

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I'm lowkey convinced none of them actually played a healer past lv 50, because ARR leveling roulette is the only time I even look at my gcd heals, let alone spam them in favor of dpsing. In part because we only have ~1 or 2 ogcd at that level (WHM has none), but also because tanks actually take a beating, and none of them can survive more than a few gcds without healing - looking at you, Stone Vigil, Dzamael Darkhold, and Aurum Vale.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

2. Rework the cleansable debuff UI to make cleansable debuffs far more visible, and make cleansing a more common choice.
- Introducing more examples of debuffs that can be removed through Esuna would not only create more opportunities for healers to engage with a non-DPS tool, but would also increase the value of cleansing as utility. The key here is that more debuffs should create choices rather than ultimatums. I'd also like to see White Mage get an OGCD AoE Esuna on a 90 or 120 second cooldown if we were to see these far more frequently as this would allow White Mage to actually compete with utility like Expedient or the healing check negation of Macrocosmos. I know AoE Esuna was a Scholar thing, but Scholar already has Expedient, and I personally feel AoE Esuna is far more a White Mage tool than a Scholar one.

Examples of cleansable debuffs we could stand to use often:

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On the subject here, I agree with the examples, giving a WHM the choice between 'esuna this doom, or use Bene to remove it' gives choices, will you need that Bene for something else later, or can you afford to use it now kinda thing

But the reason I'm quoting this part is the bit above, of AOE Esuna being WHM's 'thing' to compete with Macrocosmos or Expedient. And while it 'could' be a useful utility in a world where cleansable debuffs are way way more common, I have an idea for it. Rather than making it a 90/120s CD that is flat, bland, boring, just throw it out with no thought to it's use, make it a lily spender. That way, it's still damage neutral (you get blood lily from it), but it has to be thought about, as it's going to cost you a Rapture. Picture the scene, a Doom that can be cleansed by getting players to full HP OR Esuna'd, everyone is at not-full-HP. Do you spend the lily on the Esunaga and remove the dooms easily, or do you use it on a Rapture to heal people, and remove the dooms that way, while also restoring HP? What if the Rapture is not enough to get them to full? Then the Esunaga would be the better option because the doom would kill them, and you'd have to 'waste' a GCD heal to get the rest of the HP filled. Decisionmaking moments

Also in comparison to AOE Esuna, Macro and Expedient are busted strong IMO, if we're talking about power level/impact on the raid. Having it be a 20s 'with opportunity cost' seems more fitting to me than a random 90s CD. Like if we picture, lets be real, the only Esuna-check in the game right now, Throttle, if it were a 90s you would just press it there and then. With it being a lilyspender, you'd at least have to consider the fact you're down one lily and factor that in to later parts of the phase.

edit: oh yeh, as a lily spender it'd also proc the heal effect of Plenary Indulgence, making it possible to AOE heal for 200p while also cleansing everyone. 200 doesn't sound like much, but un-powered Horoscope does 200, and that's a 60s CD like PI