Roulette incentives backwards?

A year after a break playing other MMOs, I came back for a month to play FF14. I love the music and gameplay. Playing with other players in roulettes has been a challenge. I've found that many or most don't really want to play the dungeon; they want to get their bonuses as quickly as possible, and it makes replaying these dungeons with other players awful. Frequently tanks pull more than they can chew and healers--especially sprouts--can't keep up.

I think there's an assumption that multi-player content won't be played unless there are strong incentives for jaded players. If roulettes didn't offer the same rewards--maybe even no exp or item rewards--I think queue times still wouldn't be too bad. Many players, myself included, just like to have a pleasant experience with other players--even if it means that we clear a dungeon in 22 minutes instead of 18 minutes. That said, I like the new Duty Support system, and I think it would be great to integrate it other players that want to play the game, while filling empty roles with Duty Support. (Endgame is obviously a different beast.)

In any case, 2c from a veteran-noob.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

A year after a break playing other MMOs, I came back for a month to play FF14. I love the music and gameplay. Playing with other players in roulettes has been a challenge. I've found that many or most don't really want to play the dungeon; they want to get their bonuses as quickly as possible, and it makes replaying these dungeons with other players awful. Frequently tanks pull more than they can chew and healers--especially sprouts--can't keep up.

I think there's an assumption that multi-player content won't be played unless there are strong incentives for jaded players. If roulettes didn't offer the same rewards--maybe even no exp or item rewards--I think queue times still wouldn't be too bad. Many players, myself included, just like to have a pleasant experience with other players--even if it means that we clear a dungeon in 22 minutes instead of 18 minutes. That said, I like the new Duty Support system, and I think it would be great to integrate it other players that want to play the game, while filling empty roles with Duty Support. (Endgame is obviously a different beast.)

In any case, 2c from a veteran-noob.

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You can make your own group if you want to go in roulettes at a snail pace.

Also if you think people will do roulettes with absolutely no reward whatsoever, really ? Lol

If roulettes (aside from 90 and expert) did not offer exp, I would basically never run them except on a 90 job where I could get tomes for them. If they didn't offer tomes, I would never run them except on a sub-90 job where I could get exp from them. If they offered neither, I would never run them. This would make leveling incredibly frustrating, because the only way to do it effectively would be to keep spamming the highest level dungeon and hope there were enough people queueing for it that you could spam it with (or alternately use duty support). They are the primary way to level for most people doing alt jobs and most people would not queue for them otherwise.

I agree, and you both make great points. Perhaps the incentives have to be tuned and maybe they need to be focused on higher level dungeons.

I don't have the answers, but I tried leveling a job from 1-70, and most of the veteran players in leveling or 50/60/70/80 roulettes didn't want to be there. I think it's worth discussing whether the system could be more positive to newer players--players without a job < lvl 70.

(Also, the idea of getting pickup groups to suit new players doesn't make a lot of sense. If anything, dungeon speed runners should form their own groups to clear any dungeon, and the default for new players would be that progressing at a somewhat slower pace is possible.)

Again, 2c.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

and the default for new players would be that progressing at a somewhat slower pace is possible.

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>>trusts

Most dungeons are not remotely threatening, even the ones that are can still be pulled wall to wall by extremely average randoms with little to no communication.

Also, I think it would be good if jaded and veteran players didn't play low-level dungeons if they didn't want to. It's a game. You shouldn't play old content if you don't want to play old content, despite rewards. Really, with Duty Support, it doesn't make sense to have players that don't want to be there play that content.

I'm basically arguing that the existing rewards from roulettes should go to activities that veteran players want to play. If they don't want to play old dungeons, they shouldn't have to get a bit more exp or tomes. Honestly, I think square is already thinking in this direction.

(Obviously, I'm not saying veteran players don't want to play low level (lvl <80) dungeons. I'm just saying that those that don't want to play with learning players shouldn't feel a strong incentive to do so. That incentive should move to activities veteran players want to play.)

At the end of the day, none of this will change anything. I'm just reminded of the reasons I left originally.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

>>trusts

Most dungeons are not remotely threatening, even the ones that are can still be pulled wall to wall by extremely average randoms with little to no communication.

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You're obviously a high quality player. That hasn't been my experience. Tanks pull too much, healers can't keep up, and new Stormblood players aren't that good--and that's ok. A single wipe is fine, but when the tank wipes 4-5 times because he/she can't help but pull everything, it gets frustrating.

I hope I get the chance to play with you next time.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

If roulettes didn't offer the same rewards--maybe even no exp or item rewards--I think queue times still wouldn't be too bad. Many players, myself included, just like to have a pleasant experience with other players--even if it means that we clear a dungeon in 22 minutes instead of 18 minutes.

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MSQ roulette before it got its massive rewards already proves this statement false. The roulette was basically dead because the roulette gave such pitiful exp & tomes even when speedrunning that to most people, it wasn't even worth the effort. They had to mega buff the rewards while simultaneously prevent cutscene skipping to incentivize people to queue for it. Or take the ongoing issue of people intentionally lowering their ilvl in order to get CT in their roulettes because the other alliance roulette instances take far longer than CT because of the fact the worth vs reward is so heavily skewed on CT.

The simple reality is that roulettes are what keeps the queues populated -Anything that is even remotely outdated like old raid tier normals would become nearly impossible to get into without full premades due to the fact they are primarily filled by people from trials roulette - and without rewards to incentivize the roulette, all those instances would effectively be dead. People very rarely go into old content to help people for the warm and fuzzies, they go back there for their own player progression, whether it be EXP, tomes, etc - its human nature by large. And without those rewards from the roulette, going into a roulette and getting anything but the latest dungeon you have unlocked would be a waste of time for any person trying to level.

When you enter the DF, you are agreeing to deal with the hand the game throws at you, whether thats a full group of speedrunners or 3/4 people wanting a snail's pace run. If either side wants to guarantee a run of a certain length, they should go make their own premade before entering; otherwise you go with the majority decision.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

I'm basically arguing that the existing rewards from roulettes should go to activities that veteran players want to play. If they don't want to play old dungeons, they shouldn't have to get a bit more exp or tomes. Honestly, I think square is already thinking in this direction.

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Based on... what, exactly? As Daeriion noted, they had to buff MSQ roulette twice just to get queues moving after making it so the cut scenes were no longer skippable. 50/60/70/80 is notoriously slow because the EXP reward is lackluster compared to simply queuing into your highest level dungeon. Even Alliance roulette drops off in activity as the expansion carries on. Speaking of, unlocking Ivalice or Nier can take forever unless you specifically queue at prime time and get a little lucky. Why? Because people don't want to run them unless they have to as its easier to wipe and they're noticeably longer.

Your assertion is very much incorrect. Roulettes are only kept alive by the EXP and/or tome incentives they provide. If that were removed, I can guarantee you'd be waiting hours for even current expansion leveling dungeons. If you want a slower pace Trusts are tailor made for such an experience. Otherwise, you deal with whatever you get in DF.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

Also, I think it would be good if jaded and veteran players didn't play low-level dungeons if they didn't want to. It's a game. You shouldn't play old content if you don't want to play old content, despite rewards. Really, with Duty Support, it doesn't make sense to have players that don't want to be there play that content.

I'm basically arguing that the existing rewards from roulettes should go to activities that veteran players want to play. If they don't want to play old dungeons, they shouldn't have to get a bit more exp or tomes. Honestly, I think square is already thinking in this direction.

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Veterans players need to do lower level stuff, otherwise new players will have 30min+ queues for everything. If your argument is that they can use Trust, then keep in mind this is still MMORPG game. If you want to be left alone, with no responsibilities and your own pace, you shouldn't be playing MMORPG at all, or any team-based online games for that matter.

There is tons of issues with the game, but this ain't one of them. Nerfing roulettes will force newbs to have Trust not as a choice, but as something mandatory. That will effectively make game single player from level 1 to 89.

In fact, I would argue that roulettes should be encouraged more and reworked, so optional content like 50/60/70/80 dungeons, HW/SB/ShB AR and so on, becomes doable without 30 min queues. This and less dreadful level sync.