I want classes to *do* different things.

Most of the classes in FF14 all do the exact same thing. They have different flavours but in the end they accomplish a precisely identical goal... I'm really not a fan of this.

Red Mage is one of my favourite classes, because they can resurrect a lot of people in a short time. This isn't terribly exciting, and it's not something you should need to use, but it's one of the only examples in the entire game of a class that can do something that no other class can accomplish.

Paladin is my main. It was actually the last tank I leveled because it was the least in line with my usual aesthetic, but I wound up enjoying it the most. This was because I could do two things that no other tank could do:
1: Spam heals to keep myself and/or others alive in an emergency, at a huge cost to my DPS. In an ideal situation this will not be used, but they're the only tank that can do that. Like Red Mage's resurrects it creates many fun, exciting moments that I will always remember.
2: Have a ranged phase that allowed me to still do high DPS outside of melee for a limited window. I very much enjoyed learning a boss' patterns, planning out my cooldown windows, and being rewarded for this planning. The spell combo is cool but what really felt satisfying was knowing that I had made an unconventional decision, with an unconventional tool, to accomplish something, while my off-tank was off spamming Unmend for 5 GCDs.

That second thing is all but gone. The spell combo has been reduced back down to 5 casts at most, but much more importantly, with Fight or Flight now designed to be used alongside it, it's extremely infeasible to shift your spell combo in your rotation at all. It was already a significant DPS hit to do so, but it has been made so much worse, after already being made more significant in 6.0. I think they should have given MORE freedom in when you use this combo, not less, to further encourage this unique thing that Paladin was able to do. In trying to make sure that every class fits a uniform 120-second cooldown window, everything is being reduced to a coat of paint over the numbers.

I wonder who actually likes this? I will keep playing this game for the foreseeable future because I love the story so much, but almost all significant changes to classes and the overall combat system, since I started playing in 5.0, made them less interesting. Whose feedback is being used? What metrics are being looked at? It's very, very confusing. I don't know a single person who thinks that Paladin's rotation becoming more rigid, and the spell combo losing its purpose as an actual strategically-employed ranged phase, is a good thing.

The restructure is the best thing to happen to PLD in years

F Paladin bros, we're Warrior 3 now.

I recant my statement. It's like they stapled the worst parts of Warrior and Gunbreaker together, what a way to fuck this up.

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Originally Posted by Lindwyrm

I wonder who actually likes this? I will keep playing this game for the foreseeable future because I love the story so much, but almost all significant changes to classes and the overall combat system, since I started playing in 5.0, made them less interesting. Whose feedback is being used? What metrics are being looked at? It's very, very confusing. I don't know a single person who thinks that Paladin's rotation becoming more rigid, and the spell combo losing its purpose as an actual strategically-employed ranged phase, is a good thing.

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PLD not withstanding (I like most of the changes), I agree. XIV is amazing in presentation and feel and I'm into the lore and such so I don't see myself quitting completely (been here since pre 1.0 after all), but holy Hell are many changes an absolute detriment to the overal fun of jobs. One redeeming quality for me are the added movement abilities over the years. I recall only DRG being very manoeuvrable back then (could be wrong) and now almost all jobs got something (love Icarus on SGE) and it's a nice verity. But the rest is one downgrade after another. I wouldn't be surprised if MP were to go next. lol It's kinda sad to see. No elements, no TP, almost no stats, no meaningful gear, less and less job interplay (in a multiplayer game), jobs of the same role mainly differ in particle effects etc.

I got to be honest, if it weren't for me raiding and seeing the nuances in jobs shine there I'd take a break like so many others and come back before the next expac.

What's funny to me is the fact that other games who also have a DPS or bust mentality do it way more elegantly than XIV. The most recent example for me would be Xenoblade Chronicles 3 that absolutely nails healer and tank veriety.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

What's funny to me is the fact that other games who also have a DPS or bust mentality do it way more elegantly than XIV. The most recent example for me would be Xenoblade Chronicles 3 that absolutely nails healer and tank veriety.

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You should never compare a MMORPG against a Solo RPG. They don't expect the same things, and people don't expect the same things from them.
In a nutshell :
- In a solo game you can chose a bit everything you want at the moment you clear the game. So classes can be situationnal, not optimal or such, most people won't care. Also, you can pull fight which require specific classes combinaison tu manage properly as you are the one to choose the comp, and stuff are common with everyone (especially in Xeno 3 as weapon are not a gear slot)

- In a MMORPG, meta will came in, comparing everything and everyone. Why bother bring an underlheming job when other can do the same, but better ? People will follow the general thought and start to exclude people who don't play meta jobs. And in FFXIV, they choose to make sure all player can play the job they want and to be able to clear all content available.

In a nutshell, in solo game you play a team and make decision for a team. In MMO you play one character from a team, when other can be unknow people, who expect you to play meta.

Also Xeno 3 use the concept of dodge tank. A cool concept which tend to be to inconsistant in MMO : imagine if the TB would inevatably kill you if you got hit but healer would have nothing to do if you dodge ? Compare this when right now people vastly complains about crit chances on big potency attacks, when they got at least 5 of them in a classic Savage fight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

PLD not withstanding (I like most of the changes), I agree. XIV is amazing in presentation and feel and I'm into the lore and such so I don't see myself quitting completely (been here since pre 1.0 after all), but holy Hell are many changes an absolute detriment to the overal fun of jobs. One redeeming quality for me are the added movement abilities over the years. I recall only DRG being very manoeuvrable back then (could be wrong) and now almost all jobs got something (love Icarus on SGE) and it's a nice verity. But the rest is one downgrade after another. I wouldn't be surprised if MP were to go next. lol It's kinda sad to see. No elements, no TP, almost no stats, no meaningful gear, less and less job interplay (in a multiplayer game), jobs of the same role mainly differ in particle effects etc.

I got to be honest, if it weren't for me raiding and seeing the nuances in jobs shine there I'd take a break like so many others and come back before the next expac.

What's funny to me is the fact that other games who also have a DPS or bust mentality do it way more elegantly than XIV. The most recent example for me would be Xenoblade Chronicles 3 that absolutely nails healer and tank veriety.

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For me, Endwalker has been a weird mix of the best that the "content" has ever been, but the worst the combat system has ever been. I give them a pass on how badly the 2-minute change has played out because I don't think it's possible to really predict that ahead of time, but all of the other issues? Nah, man, that's on them.

I have never been less excited to engage in battle system content. I'm hoping BLU Eden will revive interest, but as I mentioned in a post I made some weeks ago, I'm concerned about the direction BLU is heading if they're just going to keep cramming more overpowered Primal spells into the book. I want BLU to go back a step to where it was more about informal spell combos and spell interactions, not just vomiting all of your primal spells into the moon flute window and laughing as the boss loses half its health over the next minute.

At least Bozja is still fun...

I agree, especially since the game lets you change jobs whenever you want, it can feel like the job system is pointless when all the jobs in each role basically have to do the same thing or there are basically only 2 options. I'd much rather have jobs that are good at specific things and bad at specific things so they are better or worse in different fights. That would give an incentive to swap jobs and play a role instead of a main job but I also get why they don't, it would take a lot of work to make leveling and gearing a role accessible and all the content would need to be balanced to not be lopsided in favor of a few specific jobs most of the time, it's a tall order.

Yeah the jobs are getting more and more boring and homogenised. We've just seen Monk lose an interesting defensive, turning it into a 2 minute Arcane Crest. We've seen Dragoon's Life Surge get forced into the 2 min meta by lining it up perfectly instead of having it line up at 6 mins, which allowed play variance and messing with SkS to line up skills better. Paladin is now just Gunbreaker-lite, with Shake It Off Holy Edition replacing Veil. Everything is starting to feel so samey no matter what job you play because they're all forced to conform to the same 2 minute cooldown window.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sparkthor

You should never compare a MMORPG against a Solo RPG. They don't expect the same things, and people don't expect the same things from them.
In a nutshell :
- In a solo game you can chose a bit everything you want at the moment you clear the game. So classes can be situationnal, not optimal or such, most people won't care. Also, you can pull fight which require specific classes combinaison tu manage properly as you are the one to choose the comp, and stuff are common with everyone (especially in Xeno 3 as weapon are not a gear slot)

- In a MMORPG, meta will came in, comparing everything and everyone. Why bother bring an underlheming job when other can do the same, but better ? People will follow the general thought and start to exclude people who don't play meta jobs. And in FFXIV, they choose to make sure all player can play the job they want and to be able to clear all content available.

In a nutshell, in solo game you play a team and make decision for a team. In MMO you play one character from a team, when other can be unknow people, who expect you to play meta.

Also Xeno 3 use the concept of dodge tank. A cool concept which tend to be to inconsistant in MMO : imagine if the TB would inevatably kill you if you got hit but healer would have nothing to do if you dodge ? Compare this when right now people vastly complains about crit chances on big potency attacks, when they got at least 5 of them in a classic Savage fight.

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I did compare it and I don't care. /shrug All that matters is whether it's fun. Ever since 5.0 it's on a steep decline for me. As a player that's all I'm saying. As a game designer it's their job to make it work so I don't feel that way. It really is that simple. I don't see why job diversity needs to suffer for the vast majority the way it does.