I think I have the answer to the DPS add on dillemma

My solution is in the paragraph below this intro:

I thought about this while reading someone else's post. I agreed with them when they pointed out their history on WoW. My history is similar. I started playing wow with the fantasy-based and fun-loving mindset that I intended to play the game with from the beginning to get max enjoyment out of it. I did. I loved it. Made amazing lifelong friends while leveling. After approaching max level and even after being max level and seeing more and more horrible people on that game ruin it for everyone and blizzard desperately trying to come up with solutions at the time (this was their second expansion when blizzard was still almost completely the original blizzard), I took their attacks personal and made it a point that for years I will prove everyone wrong and never once lose top dps spot. I achieved that goal. I did lose number one spot a number of times in raids, but the point being, I was hailed in my guilds as being the unbeatable guy. I proved people's guide websites wrong. I killed their idols. I dethroned what they believed to be true in my quest to teach people by proxy on how futile it is to always try to put others down and rise above to achieve self-glory. I failed in realizing and accepting how big of a task that is to convince an entire global population of this one thing - how to be a good person and let the guy I used to be - the fun loving person who never cared once about "being the best" to play as I pleased, because there are countless others who would have loved to have been treated the same. I, and others, always have the same potential as anyone else no matter what, so to me, it is futile to put down on other players for any purpose at all. They can always do what you can do. Everyone should understand this on a deep level and learn how to get along with each other naturally - nevermore to compete and belittle someone else again over something so silly that only a select few do and should care about.

My solution: Why not add attack dummies that have a damage number show up on top of them when you attack them them to show your damage score, so you can measure yourself without the use of an add on, and when you click off of it, the game is still the same way it was as before - without the use of an add-on. This solves every problem argued except for the people who want to judge other people. In that case, perhaps make an entirely optional instance where you can measure yourself in different scenarios (standstill, aoe, bossfights, mix, etc) and show a score to somebody as well as a breakdown so those people can be satisfied, but let's not get too distracted. My simple idea is the attack dummy with a number that shows on top of it to display your performance. Let's choose that as the starting point, and add your ideas onto that further to see if that is acceptable.

Last comment: I, for one, do not care about damage numbers, and I wholeheartedly agree with Yoshi P on his stance concerning this, because I feel the same way. I believe he is using wisdom in guiding this game, and my ideas when I began WoW are those same ideas that he has towards ff14, except he is a developer of an MMO and I was just a player of one. Angering some demanding players is a small price to pay to ensure a healthy gaming experience for a larger majority. High-end raiding is difficult. Finding good groups for difficult content is also difficult. That is what makes the reward of completion so much more worth it. (I've been there!) Do not take it out on other players! We are all not to be subject to someone else's fantasy and desire on what they expect to get out of a game. Let everyone enjoy it how they will without interfering with others. We have to do this IRL, and we have to do this on an online social MMO.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

My solution: Why not add attack dummies that have a damage number show up on top of them when you attack them them to show your damage score, so you can measure yourself without the use of an add on, and when you click off of it, the game is still the same way it was as before - without the use of an add-on. This solves every problem argued except for the people who want to judge other people.

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This doesn't really solve any of the issues. I can do my rotation absolutely perfectly 100% against a target dummy. I can have a perfect parse there... because I don't have any distractions and I don't have to coordinate with other people.

The reason damage parsers are a useful tool for organized groups is simple: They give people information that is actually relevant to their progression. You need to know who is pulling their weight at each phase of the raid to know how people need to improve. Maybe Bob is really good during phases 1 and 2 but struggles at dps during phase 3... you won't find that out from some sort of a 'mock trial' because it probably won't have EXACTLY that phase 3. But a parsing tool will tell you. And thus you can work with Bob to figure out what is going wrong - is he just misreading the timings, is he attacking the wrong target, is he just getting stunned too often or whatever else might be going on. None of that is visible unless you see it DURING the fight.

The primary reason damage meters exist is not 'to judge people' - they exist as a tool for members of organized groups to determine where their individual weaknesses are so they can all improve to overcome the challenges and eventually beat the raid/dungeon/boss/trial/etc. That's why the first ones were created in older MMOs and why people keep creating more of them in new MMOs... because people need tools to measure how they're doing so that when they're not meeting enrage timers/damage checks they can accurately determine how to improve.

Yes, some people use them for bad reasons... but we don't just... remove everything that could ever be used for bad purposes because of that. Sometimes you need to have nice things for ordinary people and then just punish the people who misuse them.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

This doesn't really solve any of the issues. I can do my rotation absolutely perfectly 100% against a target dummy. I can have a perfect parse there... because I don't have any distractions and I don't have to coordinate with other people.

The reason damage parsers are a useful tool for organized groups is simple: They give people information that is actually relevant to their progression. You need to know who is pulling their weight at each phase of the raid to know how people need to improve. Maybe Bob is really good during phases 1 and 2 but struggles at dps during phase 3... you won't find that out from some sort of a 'mock trial' because it probably won't have EXACTLY that phase 3. But a parsing tool will tell you. And thus you can work with Bob to figure out what is going wrong - is he just misreading the timings, is he attacking the wrong target, is he just getting stunned too often or whatever else might be going on. None of that is visible unless you see it DURING the fight.

The primary reason damage meters exist is not 'to judge people' - they exist as a tool for members of organized groups to determine where their individual weaknesses are so they can all improve to overcome the challenges and eventually beat the raid/dungeon/boss/trial/etc. That's why the first ones were created in older MMOs and why people keep creating more of them in new MMOs... because people need tools to measure how they're doing so that when they're not meeting enrage timers/damage checks they can accurately determine how to improve.

Yes, some people use them for bad reasons... but we don't just... remove everything that could ever be used for bad purposes because of that. Sometimes you need to have nice things for ordinary people and then just punish the people who misuse them.

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then what about a meter that you can activate at will.
So you can activate it in any situation you want to be measured.
But only checks your performance and can't be shared in game.
The only way to share is by posting a screenshot or telling other people what your number is.

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And thus you can work with Bob to figure out what is going wrong - is he just misreading the timings, is he attacking the wrong target, is he just getting stunned too often or whatever else might be going on. None of that is visible unless you see it DURING the fight.

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By screaming,. abusive epithets, obscenities, public humiliation..oh and lets not forget the old and very timeworn excuse

"You won the roll for the mount but xyz did more dps than you so he gets the mount"

Dont tell me this doesnt happen , it does. I am immensely amused by the utter denial I see in these threads that parsers dont contribute to toxic and abusive behaviour.

They do.

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Yes, some people use them for bad reasons... but we don't just... remove everything that could ever be used for bad purposes because of that

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Tell me, when you told Bob about his dps, did he ask you first? Or do you shove it in their faces? Did they ASK you for your feedback? Did they ASK you to discuss their dps with them?

No, they didnt. But you poke your nose into it and do it anyway, and you dont CARE whether or not they want to hear it you will tell them anyway.

You are not getting an official ingame parser. it is not happening. FULL STOP. All the whining and jumping up and down wont change a thing.

Accept it. The answer is a FLAT NO. The end.

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But only checks your performance and can't be shared in game.

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"Post your dps numbers to be allowed into our group or else"

No.

Very simple solution to DPS meters.

Don't add fights that require DPS checks and you wouldn't need DPS meters.

Problem solved.

Game has dps checks now , all content can and has been cleared with no need for dps meters.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

By screaming,. abusive epithets, obscenities, public humiliation..oh and lets not forget the old and very timeworn excuse

"You won the roll for the mount but xyz did more dps than you so he gets the mount"

Dont tell me this doesnt happen , it does. I am immensely amused by the utter denial I see in these threads that parsers dont contribute to toxic and abusive behaviour.

They do.



Tell me, when you told Bob about his dps, did he ask you first? Or do you shove it in their faces? Did they ASK you for your feedback? Did they ASK you to discuss their dps with them?

No, they didnt. But you poke your nose into it and do it anyway, and you dont CARE whether or not they want to hear it you will tell them anyway.

You are not getting an official ingame parser. it is not happening. FULL STOP. All the whining and jumping up and down wont change a thing.

Accept it. The answer is a FLAT NO. The end.



"Post your dps numbers to be allowed into our group or else"

No.

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I think they are talking about in a static setting to which if you are playing in a static and you are the reason they are not clearing the fight due to suboptimal play and you do nothing nor take advice to improve, you are fundamentally just as toxic for wasting the time of other people just as much as somebody who trash talks somebody on their dps. You can absolutely tell somebody where they need to improve without sounding like you're off your meds. Only casual rats talk like that.

Also that scenario never happens in PF. If that happens in a static then sure, that's on the static. But PF? No shot. Literally a bannable offense.

Good idea with some small problems.

You see, ESO also had this problem. PC players had access to addons, and they could fine tune their builds off of the parse information. Something that is actually really, really important in a game with custom loadouts. To rectify it in some way, ZOS gave console players various training dummies to reflect different environments. When the target reached 0hp, it spit out your dps and time of completion.

While helpful, it didn't tell you anything about how you got those numbers or how to improve. It's all guesswork from there. Something that would be useful is for it to spit out a little combat log, not unlike the one we already have access to, but on the timeline. You could see your missed gcd, or double weaves easily. A lot of the problem is that we build terrible muscle memory, and knowing where these habits lay is the hardest step to improving.

Oh, hey Vel is back to being unhinged.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

"Post your dps numbers to be allowed into our group or else"

No.

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oh I forgot to add.
They should add a rule that says no DPS gatekeeping like that.