Samurai Thread

This is a thread to discuss various aspects of the job "Samurai".

Were you not just complaining in a different thread here on the DPS board about how JP players have a megathread for NIN and SAM feedback but NA players engage in "1-gil undercutting" instead? What is the purpose of this thread? We have a compilation post of productive threads on this topic practically stickied to our front page here as it is, I don't think we need this one.

Thing that comes to mind is perhaps making kaiten into a trait for samurai somehow.

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Originally Posted by Whalaqee

Thing that comes to mind is perhaps making kaiten into a trait for samurai somehow.

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True, but it would require getting the right feel for how a trait like that would work.
Closest that comes to my mind, because I play it so much is rdm.
Something akin to rdm's meter and spending when you reach a threshold of 50 white/black for it.
Though this could be too...homogenizy for the job based on its gameplay feel.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

True, but it would require getting the right feel for how a trait like that would work.
Closest that comes to my mind, because I play it so much is rdm.
Something akin to rdm's meter and spending when you reach a threshold of 50 white/black for it.
Though this could be too...homogenizy for the job based on its gameplay feel.

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I can see that being limited to iaijutsus for the sake of simplicity. But I don't main samurai, so I am not very much aware if there is corner cases where a kaiten was useful for non-iaijutsu weaponskills.

I do concur that it might lead to the job feeling a tad samey, which is always a tough thing in development to fix. Seen it happen in other things, such as the digital card game hearthstone, where the people working on it even from the alpha, tried their best to make sure each of the classes didn't have cards that were copypasted versions of each other with minor differences. Although as the game grew older it led to those very same kind of cards they tried to keep out becoming commonplace.

Another thing that popped in my head was merging shoha 1 & shoha 2 together via a trait. Where the upgrade for shoha would be the aoe function of shoha 2. Although with numbers as is, it would be a weird and uneven 208 potency attack. So obviously this would require a bit more specific tweakings to find a happy amount.

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Originally Posted by Whalaqee

I can see that being limited to iaijutsus for the sake of simplicity. But I don't main samurai, so I am not very much aware if there is corner cases where a kaiten was useful for non-iaijutsu weaponskills.

I do concur that it might lead to the job feeling a tad samey, which is always a tough thing in development to fix. Seen it happen in other things, such as the digital card game hearthstone, where the people working on it even from the alpha, tried their best to make sure each of the classes didn't have cards that were copypasted versions of each other with minor differences. Although as the game grew older it led to those very same kind of cards they tried to keep out becoming commonplace.

Another thing that popped in my head was merging shoha 1 & shoha 2 together via a trait. Where the upgrade for shoha would be the aoe function of shoha 2. Although with numbers as is, it would be a weird and uneven 208 potency attack. So obviously this would require a bit more specific tweakings to find a happy amount.

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Yea that is the worries of homogenization I was talking about.
As it always go back to the whole thing of 'if it works for [x], then surely it can also work for [y] as they share the same design space'.
In theory it could work with the iaijutsu being kenki spenders, though there is also the question of rotation and what other spenders would be normally weaved if such a thing was implemented.
Shoha 2 as a trait could work, if its potency was lowered to 500 when affecting a primary target plus secondary targets for an easy rounded 40%, but still having 520 for when affecting only one total enemy.
However I do wonder if they even have the technology available for an ability to make such a distinction upon activation.

I'm just gonna repost what I had in another thread since it goes over what they could have done instead of removing Kaiten;

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Originally Posted by Edweena

They're especially worse since there's at least 3 things they could have done INSTEAD OF removing Kaiten, nvm the Tenka Goken issue.

Merge Shoha 1 & 2, give it the Spirits Within is upgraded into Expiacion like they did with Paladin at the start of EW. An easy solution that already exists.

Have ikishoten turn into Ogi Namikiri upon execution, like High Jump into Mirage Dive introduced THIS PATCH, or the Gnashing Fang combo introduced at the start of EW. Another easy solution that ALREADY EXISTS.

Lots of people jump right onto merging Hissatu: Guren / Senei which is good, but....
https://i.imgur.com/wFsE734.jpeg
Is just a better solution (removes 2 buttons instead of 1, while we retain both abilities as well) since Warrior has done exactly this with Fell Cleave into Inner Chaos (the equivalent 1 target spender of shinten / senei) / Decimate into Chaotic Cyclone (another equivalent 3+= target spender that can be compared to kyuten / guren) while under the effects of Nascent Chaos, a buff granted along many other things when using Inner Release. They even have their own fucking Ogi Namikiri tied to the CD, PRIMAL REND.
SE just gave us Inner Release but somehow WORSE since we have the Ogi Namikiri being tied to Ikishoten (Like Primal Rend needing to be tied to Inner Release you see what I mean?) but miss out on saving two buttons as Guren and Senei insist on being their own CD for literally no reason.
It's been designed to be outdated for two expansions now (as someone who started in SHB I assume Inner Release was a SHB ability) and if they somehow decide to merge Guren and Senei instead I'll be frankly dissapointed since it's such a lazy effort, especially when their fellow job designers already have offered a solution to the same problems.

Oh and this Guren and Senei change would actually reduce the skill floor btw, since it removes the possibility for Guren and Senei to drift as CD's, which is ONLY a skill floor issue, and is not going to affect those at the ceiling since well, reducing drifting is not a skill attained at the ceiling.

Also no Kaiten's removal does not reduce APM, the 5 kenki cost difference is negligible, and our opener is not crowded by any means in comparison to many jobs so the only reason to remove Kaiten is for futureproofing job changes we may not see until 7.0 lol and "button bloat" which I have already solved in much better ways.

It's so frustrating looking at other jobs in the same game and how they fixed issues before they even appeared like holy shit.

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There's no need to compromise on Kaiten's removal, it was unnecessary and other solutions exist that aren't outside the realm of possibility especially since they already DO exist in this very game just under other job designers.

Further elaboration on why the over all changes are bad in comparison to other jobs, especially monks rework that rolled out in several patches;

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Originally Posted by Edweena

At this point I'm convinced it's a decision for some out of touch future proofing, that should be saved for 6.5/7.0

If they wanted to remove Kaiten and make larger overall changes, they should have saved Kaiten's removal for 6.5, and give us the new stuff shortly after in 7.0 while introducing real QOL and skill floor solutions (during 6.1-6.4) like the ones I've suggested.
Warm us up to change like they did with QOL changes on Monk throughout SHB, then make real changes at the next expansion. No one would be unhappy for the early patch cycles, and it would build up trust for a change like Kaiten's removal.
As it is currently it's hard to trust the direction of Samurai's design as it clearly offers nothing in place of 6.0 (every "positive" change is contentious from potencies, crit synergy, to tenka goken, nothing offers a pure improvement in place of what we had before).

Going potentially 5 patch cycles without Kaiten (which is unlikely imo due to feedback) aka 2 years after many locked Samurai in as their main during the 6.0 cycle is beyond ridiculous.
Oh and yes please revert 6.1 Samurai changes thank you.

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Kaiten's largest issue with it's removal is that it invalidates kenki management as well, and if a resource is becoming invalidated as it no longer needs to be managed, then it stands to reason that the resource should be removed entirely.

I no longer even keep kenki on screen as I just press shinten when it lights up, pooling has also become less important with trick attacks raid buff removed, and Ikishoten granting us half of our kenki for the only remaining raid buff window now at 2m.
Shoha can't even be pooled in any tangible way since you need to get it out between Iaijutsu / Ogi Namikiri, so just press that sucker as soon as it glows!

Kaiten was the only thing keeping my eyes on managing kenki, and now that it's gone I no longer need kenki as a visual reference.
(It's like having the DRK's Darkside Gauge before obtaining The Blackest Night, I kept asking why the fuck is this job gauge a thing?)
They can change Shinten into a charge based CD similar to Bloodletter / Rain of Death (Shinten / Kyuten) and save on ui bloat while retaining what amounts to the exact same gameplay since we gain the resource statically.
Ikishoten could even grant 2 charges of Shinten / Kyuten and it would be literally the same.

So yeah they can delete kenki now lol.
And hopefully give us a completely new resource? There's no guarantee though. Especially since such an enormous change would likely be saved for 7.0 roughly 2 years from now, of boring boring gameplay.

Which is kind of why Kaiten's removal is such a sore spot for me since it indicates that they have no real plan, unlike Monk which rolled out good and gradual changes over the course of several patches, then saved the final and most challenging changes for 6.0 after introducing loaaaads of welcome changes, IE building trust.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

I'm just gonna repost what I had in another thread since it goes over what they could have done instead of removing Kaiten;

There's no need to compromise on Kaiten's removal, it was unnecessary and other solutions exist that aren't outside the realm of possibility especially since they already DO exist in this very game just under other job designers.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edweena

Further elaboration on why the over all changes are bad in comparison to other jobs, especially monks rework that rolled out in several patches;

Kaiten's largest issue with it's removal is that it invalidates kenki management as well, and if a resource is becoming invalidated as it no longer needs to be managed, then it stands to reason that the resource should be removed entirely.

I no longer even keep kenki on screen as I just press shinten when it lights up, pooling has also become less important with trick attacks raid buff removed, and Ikishoten granting us half of our kenki for the only remaining raid buff window now at 2m.
Shoha can't even be pooled in any tangible way since you need to get it out between Iaijutsu / Ogi Namikiri.
Kaiten was the only thing keeping my eyes on managing kenki, and now that it's gone I no longer need kenki as a visual resource.
They can change Shinten into a charge based CD similar to Bloodletter / Rain of Death (Shinten / Kyuten) and save on ui bloat while retaining what amounts to the exact same gameplay since we gain the resource statically.
Ikishoten could even grant 2 charges of Shinten / Kyuten and it would be literally the same.

So yeah they can delete kenki now lol.

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Those are both very helpful posts you posted.
I do agree with you that it would be in the best interest to merge Guren and Senei and also merging both Shohas together.
I have myself noticed the dragoon change with high jump and mirage dive when playing it here and there and while I found it odd at first I warmed up to it.

If I might inquire, are you fine with various jobs having their buttons becoming morphing buttons?
Also second question would be, relating to morphing buttons for samurai, is this for ease of use on controller or pc gameplay?

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

However I do wonder if they even have the technology available for an ability to make such a distinction upon activation.

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All my proposed ideas include technology and solutions already present in the game btw, so there is no excuse for the current state of samurai over what I and many others propose, don't compromise! :)
You can source it looking at the Warrior Job Guide, as it's where I photoshopped a lot of that text into the example image: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/warrior/
Go to the Paladin from there to look at Spirits Within into Expacion, and check out the Gunbreaker's Gnashing Fang too if you're curious.

The only minor tech issue is Ogi is a weapon skill, while Ikishoten is an ability, and usually they don't chain a weaponskill into an ability...
HOWEVER, Ogi Namikiri goes from being a weaponskill currently into Kaeshi Namikiri, AN ABILITY, SO PSYCHE I GUESS.

Even then, if there was some BIZARRE technical limitation where Kaiten couldn't affect Ogi Namikiri, because the Ikishoten > Ogi / Kaeshi Namikiri chain was all made into abilities, that would still be completelyyyyy fine, I didn't even think of using Kaiten on Ogi Namikiri when I first started EW lol.