The general direction of job changes is straight asinine. Literally NO ONE benefits.

At this point, it's plain obvious you guys COMPLETELY lost the plot.

We can all understand you guys have a massive influx of new players and wants to make game/content accessible.

However, you guys mistook for making the game accessible to making the game dumb and boring. You want to lower the FLOOR, not the CEILING.

This is why we have a forum absolutely filled with pissed off players. Anyone who is dedicated and likes your game are pissed off. SMN, NIN, SAM, MCH are not happy. MNK has been pissed off for months already. Look over to the other forum. You are bleeding healers. Every DC is literally bottlenecked on Healers. WTF do you think is that?

And casuals? The people you guys are supposedly pandering to? Those people who don't spend time optimising? Here's the kick. THEY DON'T CARE. They don't use DPS meters. They don't know the damage difference. It doesn't do shit. They are not going to say "Oh yay, my damage increased by x% because now I don't have to do y".

If you think depth and nuance in combat system is a detriment, you are delusional. It's the FLOOR. Not the CEILING. People get annoyed at not being able to play. They don't get annoyed at not being the best.

And it's not about casuals who "don't spend effort". Some day, those casuals would've played the game enough to invest more time and effort in. What do you think they going to find? END OF THE ROAD. Time to unsub.

There's no point playing different classes because it's not a different experience, it's just a different combo button being pressed. What's the fucking point?

You've pissed off the veteran players.

You've chopped off the longevity of the game for new/aspiring players.

YOUR TUTORIALS SUCK at teaching players how to play jobs. And you compensate it by chopping the game down. Put in proper incentivised tutorial quests that slowly take players through the depth of your job/combat system. What do you have? A blabber of popup about job gauge. And you think the problem is complexity? HOLY SHIT. Seriously.

A low floor is fine. We've all done our fair share of carrying people who under perform. No one's giving them shit. We try to help. What do you think "community" is for? To help, teach and encourage aspiring new players. When there's nothing to aspire to, what do you think the "community' is going to do? Yeah, there's no need for it either. Game's dumb. Just spam precanned combos.

LOWER THE FLOOR. (if you want)

NOT THE CEILING.

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Originally Posted by SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep

TL;DR with politness:
Please lower the skill floor rather than the skill ceiling.
The community is getting impatient with the job direction, the lack of transparency just adds more salt to the wound.

We used to like the "Easy to learn, hard to master" aspect of the jobs. Yet you now take a complete different direction, going the Nintendo way, aka Spoon feeding the player.
We want to encounter difficult situation, please reconsider the job direction.
If you still refuse to provide tutorials about rotation, that is your choice but please don't impact the veterans by changing the job design rather than the tutorials.

For example, adding more DPS tools to healers would not change the skill floor, but it will severaly increase the skill ceiling while making the job engaging.

Thank you.

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I do agree.

No matter how simple the jobs get, some players just won't care enough to learn how to play it. You're more forgiving of them than I am. If there's anything I've learned from Crystal Tower raids, it's that some veteran players can't even manage a 1-2-3 combo.

Instead of helping these players, simplifying jobs will just demotivate players, old and new, who want interesting and engaging job mechanics.

Don't lower the ceiling, indeed. If you do, you're liable to crush us all.

Gosetsu was just the beginning.

100% agree, sam nin and drg are next in this line of overhauling the jobs to make them "streamlined"

This post summarizes my feelings on the game since Shadowbringers. Stormblood to me was for the most part good with keeping complexity in jobs without bearing the clunkiness of Heavensward or A Realm Reborn. Nowadays the game is getting easier and easier, yet you do Duty Finder or Party Finder and still see Cure 1 spam, no healer dps, no provokes, proper comboing, and much much much more. This is further exasperated in content like Bozja where people refuse to bring essences or actions because “lul grinding too hard”.

The game can get as easy as possible yet all it does is bore veterans, but also if people don’t care anyway, no easing will help in that matter. Having people easily jump into the game but having to master the craft and have that mastery be difficult is rewarding but also a great way to ease others burden since wasting people’s time is not my idea of a good time, yet too often I end up partying with those who can’t even read the tooltips.

Honestly, something that sucks so much is that if you wanna make Machinist accessable, don't make it brain dead to play, it's unrewarding, but do make it require less ping than 150 to play optimally. SE are fine with limiting players based on their location in the world and where they wanna play with their friends but they aint okay with rewarding players who put in the time to be better and improve at something. At least when mch sucked in SB it was on a more personal level, sure dps was bad if you played well, but at least you put in the effort to do well on the job, it was obvious the difference between a good player or a bad player, if you somehow suck at playing modern mch its way more concerning as its borderline impossible to suck and yet, their are players how somehow manage to not do too hot on the job, I feel like this is more likely to spark a toxic enviroment over people having a harder time with their jobs. I'm more likely to be mad at a grown man not being able to a put a circle in a circle hole rather than than watching them try to fit in a triangle hole on one of those childrens toys, because thats all the modern job designs are, childrens toys.

These petty, bitter posts don't help anyone when you generalize everything without giving proper, pointed suggestions.

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Originally Posted by SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep

SMN, NIN, SAM, MCH are not happy. MNK has been pissed off for months already. Look over to the other forum. You are bleeding healers. Every DC is literally bottlenecked on Healers.

You've pissed off the veteran players.

YOUR TUTORIALS SUCK at teaching players how to play jobs.

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Old SMN mains, me excluded, don't like the new version because they wanted to keep the messy, AI crippled mess from before. Not everyone wants change, instead they complain about it endlessly. Familiarity is something deeply integrated the human psychology. The SAM changes had the right goals in mind but they introduced new issues that change the job's game feel. From the outcry, the devs can learn from this and do better next time. Now as for healers, this isn't as clear cut. On one hand, you cannot expect a deep damage rotation from that job category. On the other, if you introduce too much of it, then you risk overwhelming healers in tight situations. And pointing out that this is why healers are so sought after is just not true. Healing in the vast majority of RPGs is simply a lesser populated role. Seeing big numbers on the screen is just a more appealing dopamine rush, something a healer cannot provide. Don't try to pin this on our devs.

Again, "veterans" are pissy because people don't want change. It's different and unfamiliar.

XIV's tutorials explain the basics of a role. Job specific stuff is explained in their respective job quests. You know, the story stuff that people are allergic to, in their super story-focused RPG. Granted, newer jobs do a better job at this. If you mean rotations, then this is just something the devs can't do very well. What if the players find better rotations or more optimal strategies? The tutorials would need to be updated constantly and this is just a massive time sink. I say it's better to leave this to the community to figure out. Teach each other and help improve together. It's a sort of agency that should remain so.
But whose to say the tutorials end there? From the game's early stages, it teaches you basic mechanics that are repeated throughout the whole game. Stacking, spreading, flares, following AOEs, etc. And the game does so by first introducing mechanics in a safe way, that rarely outright kill you for getting it wrong. Simply "punishing" you with a vuln stack at first. Then they build up on that and added new flavours to said mechanics. This isn't always true for every fight, since savage and such operate differently.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Nowadays the game is getting easier and easier, yet you do Duty Finder or Party Finder and still see Cure 1 spam, no healer dps, no provokes, proper comboing, and much much much more.

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The devs can't prevent people from being assholes and sandbagging on purpose. But the players can very well report something like Cure Mages. Yes, you can do that. It's legitimate. If they refuse to deal damage, even after you ask them to improve, you are in the right.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

No matter how simple the jobs get, some players just won't care enough to learn how to play it. You're more forgiving of them than I am. If there's anything I've learned from Crystal Tower raids, it's that some veteran players can't even manage a 1-2-3 combo.

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It's not that surprising really. it's been a fairly common opinion for a long time that the combat system lacks weight or impact. it's just not rewarding to play. follow a rotation over and over and over...

all the elements that at least added some depth to it. emnity, crowd control, resource management, all butchered.
even 1.2s combat had more depth and engaging elements with things like its incapacitation system. or the battle regimens which sadly never really got to see the light of day..

positionals is a good example. even as far back as 4.0 they were basically worthless on anything not monk.. 4.0 samurai ignoring positionals lost less than 0.5% of there damage on paper. but in actual fights it was immeasurable. any differnece you might observe would fall well within the margin of error you'd allow for crits & direct hits... one or 2 extra crits over the course of an encounter and you could end up doing more dps than if you were hitting positionals..

ninjas another one if you ignore its positionals and just stay behind the boss all the time you're losing a staggering 2 potency per second on your armor crush.. doesnt exactly make it feel rewarding or impactful does it? once again it equated. and at a glance still does equate to less than 0.5% of your dps and would be immeasurable because of varience in crits latency direct hits etc etc..

combat needs weight and impact more than just do a rotation over and over. and needs to be about more than just whack a boss till its dead. even buffs and utility are boring. here's yet another 5% damage boost on a 120s cooldown... wow how interesting...

make it impactful and interesting and more players will start caring. but when you just do the same muscle memory rotation fight in fight out. it gets old and stale very quickly..

I still think the combat system they had in 1.23 was vastyly superior to what we have now.. monk did a dragon kick the boss "felt it"

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Originally Posted by SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep

YOUR TUTORIALS SUCK at teaching players how to play jobs.

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Not justt he tutorials honestly. almost anything players find "difficult" is because the game does a terrible job of explaining stuff...

and rather than make better explanations they just nerf the content..

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Originally Posted by SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep

YOUR TUTORIALS SUCK.

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Apologies for the snip, but this was the comment I agree with most.

I'm relatively new to the game - started playing in December. I struggled with the gameplay through the MSQ and I'll confess that I'm still generally rubbish at the gameplay.

However, as you say, the lack of any real tutorial around my chosen job didn't really help, particularly since the jobs 'evolve' as you progress through the game. One issue I found, as I progressed though the MSQ, was that I was unlocking new abilities but had little or no idea of how said ability worked, with the tooltip explanations being of limited use. And the fact that said abilities were very often connected to another ability was just confusing.

Whilst I realize there are numerous player-produced guides easily found via a quick Google search, it is disappointing that the game itself isn't more perspicuous regarding this.