My humble take on new SMN

I was a SMN main in the past, and for reference I am a Final Fantasy veteran in general, having played every games since FF1. I loved SMN in the past, as it felt like the FF11 summoner, though not as fun as it was in FF11; much less options and such. But I've always loved the more FF10 approach to summoning, where the summon isn't just a one and done type thing, and they actually fight by your side. Having said that, however, I will freely admit old SMN was jank as heck and needed a rework really badly. I will only say that I do not, at all, like the new direction they took. But I know they're not going back, so instead, I'd like to provide some criticism on the current SMN incarnation, and how I'd personally find a lot more enjoyment out of it (currently, it's my least favorite class in the game by far.)

The first thing, I think, is that as it is, there's nowhere near enough stuff to keep track of in the class. My eyes usually just glaze from how overly simplistic the class is. And the main thing, I think, is that for the majority of the game, you're just pressing one button at any one time. Until level 86, you just press Ruin/Gemshine or their AoE equivalents, with a few oGCDs once in a while. I feel like I'm spamming that Ruin button even more than I used to, which is saying a lot. To that end, I think the trait that allows the use of the other spells like Slipstream or the dash with Ifrit, should be given at level 60, not 86. SMN should not start feeling like a level 60 class when it hits 86, that's absurd. From that point, you should only be getting more on top of what's already there, like other summons (Ramuh, Shiva, Leviathan, what have you) that work differently from the main trio.

Though it's not necessary, I think bringing back at least one DoT would also do a lot for keeping you actually thinking about what you're doing. I mean, come on. The most iconic Summoner in Final Fantasy, can and absolutely does cast Bio a lot. It's one of her best spells until you get the late game summons! But regardless, one thing I would like to see, is to separate Bahamut and Phoenix. Have them share the same cooldown, but allow us to choose which we want to summon. Being given the choice between a DPS centric summon and Support centric summon would already be a more meaningful choice than "which order do I press my shiny buttons". If your party is struggling, or you're progging, you can summon Phoenix more to help the healers out. Otherwise, you can summon only Bahamut for maximum damage output.

Anyway, that's just my take, as someone who is definitely not happy with the current SMN, on how it could be improved to be more complex and engaging while still being approachable. I know a lot of people love SMN as it is now, and I respect that. I just hope to see the class be tweaked moving forward to have the best of both worlds, to give complexity without it being overwhelming like it was in the past. Take it as you will!

I think a good direction would have been going all in on demi-summons, maybe expanding their ability list now that AI isn't a barrier (add an enkindle 2 for Flare Breath on Bahamut? manually choose where to cast Everlasting Flight? something more interesting than just more damage would be nice but not necessary especially for Bahamut).
Something fun that I think they lost this update is the sense of building up to and preparing your Bahamut window, and something they left completely undeveloped was Aetherflow. I was fond of Aethertrail when it was around but also understand why it's gone, something in the same spirit would suit even the new SMN I feel. Without DoTs there should be something else to manage, and they don't seem keen on making anyone but BLM, PLD, and DRK really manage their MP. Other than that adding another Demi would have been a natural course of action, Alexander is a bit obstructive and time-stuff is usually avoided in this game, but there's plenty of choice.
And while yes stockpiling Ruin 4s wasn't particularly complex it did facilitate that preparatory feel, and rewarded some forethought with damage.

There's plenty of potential with the new SMN of course, they've just designed it into a bit of a flowchart, and appeasing old SMN mains would be a larger undertaking than they've given to any of the other rework victims. Probably a bit hopeless at this point.

"Old smn mains" however are not unified in any way shape or form. There were those who tolerated the state of affairs all throughout Shadowbringers who are thrilled with the rework and have never been happier, and there is a tiny but vocal minority of people who won't stop complaining that their complex poison mage got taken away. The only way to satisfy the latter is to give them Necromancer or something. Twisting Summoner to suit their desires brought the job to the point where the devs threw up their hands in surrender and ultimately led to the rework.

Stocking ruin ivs was not that great of a mechanic, and there is no way that I would ever support bringing back dots to babysit. One thing is a one-off ability like Gunbreaker's dot that you press once its available, which could easily fit for a Leviathan or Ramuh inspired attack, but another thing is the dot babysitting from old Summoner. That whole concept can stay in the trash or it can be tacked on to Necromancer in 2 years, but it certainly does not need to resurface in Summoner.

As a general point, anyone who brings up "bbbut Rydia casted Bio!" already loses legitimacy because why on earth would a *Summoner* prefer to use poison magic instead of primal-themed abilities? You already have Bahamut. I'm now a Summoner main after having abandoned the mess of a class we got in Shadowbringers and I say what we need are more primals, not Bio. Moving some more higher level abilities down to lower levels would be great for the class, and some primal-themed attacks to weave in between our currently existing spells would be the most thematically appropriate way to go about things.

I have already played and enjoyed more the new Endwalker SMN than all the other SMN versions of the other expansions combined.
Garuda-Egi taking half a minute to cast contagion or having to cast sustain on your pet because it kept dying to random stuff?

How I miss those times.

Nope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

"Old smn mains" however are not unified in any way shape or form. There were those who tolerated the state of affairs all throughout Shadowbringers who are thrilled with the rework and have never been happier, and there is a tiny but vocal minority of people who won't stop complaining that their complex poison mage got taken away. The only way to satisfy the latter is to give them Necromancer or something. Twisting Summoner to suit their desires brought the job to the point where the devs threw up their hands in surrender and ultimately led to the rework.

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Not like all SMN mains I know are complaining about the braindead aspect of the job.
Not like there was a meme about the SMN rotation simplified as playing with legos.

You can defend as hard as you can and shell yourself, there are people who are unhappy with the state of the job.
Do you have to agree? No. But you have to accept their opinion as they are just that, opinions.

One poor dot won't bring ShB summoner back, you are overexagerating the situation. Plus, the problem was never the dot but the terrible pet AI.
And we also discussed the bio part, IV SMN is IV SMN, XIV SMN is XIV SMN. No one cries that MCH isn't using a melee job using a spear.

People are unhappy and it's quite impolite of you to try to silence their voices by repeating "But it's a minority!!!"

Listening to their opinions brought the job to the failed state it was in and the furthest removed "Summoner" that could barely be called by that title. Forgive me if I am unreceptive to their advances after their tantrums. They are not victims in the slightest. They co-opted a beloved Final Fantasy job while seemingly being completely unaware of what it was actually supposed to be all while selectively picking at niche things like Rydia's bio spell in order to suit their narrative.

In any case, the objective reality is that they are in fact a minority and the overwhelming majority is happier with the current situations while wanting some reasonable improvements. If they were any majority worth listening to then I can only imagine that "Summoner" would have Bio 1/2/3/4 and Miasma 1/2/3/4 as separate dots to constantly be juggling on top of managing a hideous looking pet whose actions ultimately amount to pitiful damage. With all due respect it is time for these "scorned" individuals to find something better to do with their time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Listening to their opinions brought the job to the failed state it was in and the furthest removed "Summoner" that could barely be called by that title. Forgive me if I am unreceptive to their advances after their tantrums. They are not victims in the slightest. They co-opted a beloved Final Fantasy job while seemingly being completely unaware of what it was actually supposed to be all while selectively picking at niche things like Rydia's bio spell in order to suit their narrative.

In any case, the objective reality is that they are in fact a minority and the overwhelming majority is happier with the current situations while wanting some reasonable improvements. If they were any majority worth listening to then I can only imagine that "Summoner" would have Bio 1/2/3/4 and Miasma 1/2/3/4 as separate dots to constantly be juggling on top of managing a hideous looking pet whose actions ultimately amount to pitiful damage. With all due respect it is time for these "scorned" individuals to find something better to do with their time.

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Once again you are trying to silence their opinions by diminishing who they are and overexagerating the facts.
By using "tantrums" you want other to identify them as immature, you keep calling them a minority therefore their voices shouldn't be heard and you don't even try to hide it with "scorned individuals".

Now, show me the proof "their opinions brought the job to the failed state it was".
You make the claim, you show me the proof. Otherwise you are doing (another) witch hunt.

Finally, if you actually read the initial post, OP actually only wants "reasonable improvement", one more thing to keep track of.
I think it's quite difficult for you to accept that a lot of SMN players are happy with the direction the job took but they want the job to be expanded upon to not be braindead.

If complaining for several months straight about how one of the more badly received jobs in Shadowbringers got reworked is not immature, then I leave it to the imaginations of others to come up with a word to describe that sort of behaviour. They have been largely unsuccessful in gaining the sympathy of the general population, especially with the behaviour they've displayed.

It was they who were being catered to since ARR when the job first released. It has consequently led to no small amount of problems that piled up so high over the years that the only way forward left was to start completely from scratch. Now that their stranglehold on the job is broken, they react like kids put in timeout. Fortunately they are outnumbered at the end of the day and their reign of terror is over.

Nevertheless it is obvious why Summoner does not need a dot. Because there are far too many cooler attacks it could have in place of one as opposed to tacking on the very same failed concepts that the rework sought to address. You want dots? Go play Necromancer in 7.0. You want pets that were originally described in ARR as "demons" in the official job descriptions from back then? Wait for Necromancer. Because goodness knows us real Summoners had to wait quite a while for a job worthy of the name to actually be added into the game.

New SMN just feels incomplete.

It needs more to do during the summon gemshine spam loop.

It is too bare bones in my opinion, the core of the rotation is finally cohesive and feels like how a SMN should be but there is not much aside that and as result of it and the huge amount of instant casts it has the gameplay feels very repetitive, as if it were mechanically a lv60-70 job when everyone else is playing with lv 90 ones