My changes for tanks. suggestions

current design is flawed. a lot of abilities cooldowns and dps abilities are not engaging. problem is when you pull and use cooldown. wall to wall. you have moments where it falls off. and leaves you weak at this stat..

Rampart - now gonna be trait for all tanks. when you complete a combo rather it is aoe or single target you gain rampart part stacks 3 times this last up 30-40 seconds it resets every time finish combo but wont

"But hey wait? low levels dont have full combos. no need worry about that. if dont have other combo pieces it will trigger on the first or second part of the combo this changes as you level up"

why is this a great change -

1. it make tanking way more engaging then it is instead of shield lob aoe spam
2. teach players to use single target rotation more often then aoe one until way higher level. by tabing through targets hit muiti-targets one part of single dps combo
3. it work like huton does in armor crush. keeping your defensive cooldown always active while rewarding good game play
4. with stat squish and everything this not as overpowered as you think it is. full rotation takes time if add global cooldown each button you press.

and to say this type of thing doesn't work well is a lie cause monks have greeze lightening when they finish there 1.2.3 combo only difference is yours helps you tank better last longer

should this effect all tanks different no that create a problem.

basically whats happening here is you pretty much loose all your current defensive cooldowns. to have one perminately up pretty much all the time

this upgrades at 45 sentinal - watchs increases the stacks to 5 watch when you perform 5 full combos in a row you gains 50% damage reduction this for all tanks as long keep your combos flowing this will stay on your tank


Now this fixes alot problems tanks
1. tank buttons longer become boring and simple
2. healers adjust until tanks get full stacks. then healers can dps things get phew phew quicker
3. yes tanks dont have worry about pushing defensive cooldown buttons but at the trade of rewarding good gameplay
4. it might be little harder then you think to pull big and keep this 100% up. most pulls trash
5. however boss fights you will feel it. you feel power of being a tank. amounts of damage cut pretty hard. but if get hit by tank buster still feel it still drop you below 50% if you get crited you still lose 25% of your hp you will not snowball things if people worried about that

I refuse to believe that your response to 'tanks can run out of cooldowns sometimes if they space them badly or the overall DPS of the party is very bad' is to remove literally all the defensively oriented nuance that the entire game has, or that your idea of 'rewarding good gameplay' somehow involves removing all of the actual gameplay?

Using single target combos to keep up a defensive buff also runs counter to trying to keep aggro on multiple mobs, and I can't imagine an idea worse than 'well the DPS should just hit the thing that the tank is hitting' because... why would you do that? In this situation, who's actually having fun? Certainly not the tank who's losing aggro due to bad job design, nor the DPS who are dying because they're trying to AoE, nor the healer who can't keep up trying to heal the entire party based on which DPS has aggro on which mobs.

It doesn't even work as it does for physical DPS because all of them aside from Dragoon have passive upkeep on their buffs via their AoEs now. Ninja upkeeps Huton via AoE. Samurai upkeeps the haste and damage buffs via its two step combo. Monk, which previously did in fact accrue greased lightning via AoE prior to the removal of greased lightning stacks, still extends Twin Snakes via AoE.

Hell, Warrior, an *actual tank,* also upkeeps Storm's Eye via their normal combo, and that's the better consideration to make anyway because doing a single target combo to get the buff *while* you're trying to hold aggro on multiple mobs *and* pull to the next pack suuucks.

I am genuinely not going to even attempt to touch upon how much this obliterates the concept of playing tank defensively in any content that's not a trash pull in a dungeon.

let me break it down in math 15% of this whole game is actually raiding, primal but 80% is question. 4 man dungeon content, fates and solo content. when people talk about actually class changes first thing they do is bring up raiding content watch is only 15% of this game. right now tanks are boring abilities are boring there basic as hell. lack anytype of creativity on tanks devs part. you hit something few times times you have 100% aggro. you dont have any tanking tools. anytime someone suggests please make tanks feel like tanks again. then have bunch people crying that there tank isn't a dps. hello whats your job again? what are you so post to do in parties? uguu-bungu dps? are you serious more phew phew doesn't make you good tank no it does makes you aweosme its like being healer refuses to heal just damages and tank dies and whole parties wipes

"Don't get me started on healers wanting 22 button dps rotation. we dont want another "paladin situation" on white mage thank you"

healers getting attacked. Its ok tank phew phew uguu bunga dps? right first of all. we don't want another paladin situation where it started in storm bringer. got even worse in end walker. you know what cause bad class design instead of thinking of hey what is a tank bring to a party. dps ok absolute nothing unique at all. if wanted to dps i roll a dps didn't want have an "Ultima" on my lvl80 paladin cant sit here say this great game design. oh wow new damage ability already have 10 of those already. yay another button already added to my overcomplex button rotation that has 22-30 buttons. get really boring really quick. you use same button over and over and over again in-between each trash pull that gets boring you use same 123 rotation on posses and pop defensive cooldowns like working a reallife job that gets boring. adding more dps abilities isn't gonna fix the issues.

when a tank has 22-30 button rotation its no longer a tank its a dps

I do not care damage when i tank don't care if i do 1-1000 damage when i tank as long as it feels like Im living tank fantasy. I'm keeping monsters on me. I lowering the damage I take so healer doesn't want kill me after end of a fight. i stand still so my monk pull off positional. and I pull responsibility for my team I pace my cool-downs right I use provoke to get monsters from not attacking my team members. dps abilities aren't a need on tank. I dont care about how big my dps is as long i keep my teammates safe. focus on me not me. having boring massive dps does not concern me. what concerns me doing my damn job. thing is even if they added more cooldowns more boring dps abilities not gonna fix! existing issues that tanks jobs have.

currently they lost what it means to tank. and its ruining tanking experience for alot people! not just me.
we need to solve this my tank issue now. not wait until 2 years later hope they improve and still don't we have tanks pulling wall for wall dying getting toxic and salty at the healer when healer doing everything in there power keep them alive still isn't enough

But removing defensive abilities and baking them into the rotation is making you feel like less of a tank, as it is all automatic. You get your defensive stacks and then just keep doing your rotation anyway. That tank buster? Well, with no extra defensive cooldowns, you don't have to worry, the healer just has to heal a bit more.

And I will stand by the fact that tanks should get some DPS abilities. If they didn't, Paladin would still be spamming the same 3 hit combo over and over again from ARR and that is even more boring.

If you want tanks to feel like tanks, then they need their defensive tools, however, yo uneed to think about other aspects of fights that tanks can control, like boss positioning, making stuns/interrupts more prevelant etc.

Also, he reason why people always bring up raiding in regards to balancing jobs is because that is where balancing matters the most. If you have 1 or 2 jobs that stand out as much better than the rest, poeple will just play those jobs to give themselves the best advantage. Noone cares about balance in Dungeons as it is easy content that gets facerolled very quickly.

And I am going to say this here, but in regards to most of your topics, you have not given any thought into how your changes actually affect the gameplay and how it would feel to play. You need to think, how will this affect my gameplay in a positive way and how could it affect the gameplay negatively.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

But removing defensive abilities and baking them into the rotation is making you feel like less of a tank, as it is all automatic. You get your defensive stacks and then just keep doing your rotation anyway. That tank buster? Well, with no extra defensive cooldowns, you don't have to worry, the healer just has to heal a bit more.

And I will stand by the fact that tanks should get some DPS abilities. If they didn't, Paladin would still be spamming the same 3 hit combo over and over again from ARR and that is even more boring.

If you want tanks to feel like tanks, then they need their defensive tools, however, yo uneed to think about other aspects of fights that tanks can control, like boss positioning, making stuns/interrupts more prevelant etc.

Also, he reason why people always bring up raiding in regards to balancing jobs is because that is where balancing matters the most. If you have 1 or 2 jobs that stand out as much better than the rest, poeple will just play those jobs to give themselves the best advantage. Noone cares about balance in Dungeons as it is easy content that gets facerolled very quickly.

And I am going to say this here, but in regards to most of your topics, you have not given any thought into how your changes actually affect the gameplay and how it would feel to play. You need to think, how will this affect my gameplay in a positive way and how could it affect the gameplay negatively.

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i mean they did kinda over did it on paladin. i be happy back then with either aoe changes they added over flash. hell be happy with just divine spirit. but over did it. when they gave paladin hardiest hitting ability in game at lvl80 there are only handful abilities with potency that high we already had that covered its beating dead horse at this point to much a good thing makes it bad.

when you cant even play your job anymore cause squire enix put to many buttons to that you can only play that job on pc. not controller. this is a problem not everyone who plays this game plays on pc paladin is button bloated to the max with dps abilities. I have all 40 buttons on my controller filled with paladin buttons

also from what i'm understanding is that anything remotely feels like a tank and is not dps skill isn't bad for tank job? you say that no one cares about 4 man content. when I've died more times in that cause someone elses tanking stupidity other then pulling to big forgetting tank stance. not popping cooldowns. making healer tank a tank buster not keeping boss still of course this is someone elses fault not your own Ive died less in raids then dungeons i died less in savage content then i did in 4 man dungeons. not giving caring bout 4 man content the thing leads up to raiding. is why when start raid get one those special snowflakes dont know what the hell there doing and think there doing nothing wrong. refuse to accept anyone help

sense vast majority of stupid people come into this game down right refuse to use defensive cooldowns. this shows you how much sense people lack when playing this tanking job

what makes matters worse? is vast majority of the community supports this toxic behaviour offering no guidance cause if try to help anyone in this over-sensitive community you look frowned upon labelled toxic or reported. of course i dont want to help people get butt hurt when asked. "hey are you new. would like some help can offer some"

when making suggestions that can fix vast majority of stupidity that festers duty finder, sense they dont want to push these buttons make or break fights. then needs be something place forces them too

if your one those tanks thats know what there doing has played long enough how know how properly use cooldowns and stuff nice to met you good job. then you know what happens when you mess up other people pay for it. they pay for your mistakes. cause you forgot press right buttons at right time. so if they add automantic system where your challenged to keep cooldown active on you. cause massive majority of tanks didn't want push them in first place. make matters worse we have tank players so bad . that actually have give healers defensive cooldowns put on you. cause you can't do it yourself.

I trying give constructive critism here. without offending someone but what i am stating is facts

when tanks have bad game design it effects everyone . the melee dps right now is better class design the tanks have tank design right now that's saying something why is it when we mention healer and tank to squire enix yoshi-p we get frowned upon its like they dont care love tank players. or tank concept or heal concept

meanwhile we have community where we have healers wanting nothing more then dps buttons. adding any type healer utility thats buffs/status effect another player is taboo. and tank community this likes anything that makes them feel more like tank. less then dps

Mostly these PC players they would be happy even if button did nothing like it made you sit down in fight or killed yourself. we want more buttons pc master-race doesn't seem understand console players play this game too when you give a console players buttons pass 24-40 shit gets annoying and hard.

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Originally Posted by Aurida

I refuse to believe that your response to 'tanks can run out of cooldowns sometimes if they space them badly or the overall DPS of the party is very bad' is to remove literally all the defensively oriented nuance that the entire game has, or that your idea of 'rewarding good gameplay' somehow involves removing all of the actual gameplay?

Using single target combos to keep up a defensive buff also runs counter to trying to keep aggro on multiple mobs, and I can't imagine an idea worse than 'well the DPS should just hit the thing that the tank is hitting' because... why would you do that? In this situation, who's actually having fun? Certainly not the tank who's losing aggro due to bad job design, nor the DPS who are dying because they're trying to AoE, nor the healer who can't keep up trying to heal the entire party based on which DPS has aggro on which mobs.

It doesn't even work as it does for physical DPS because all of them aside from Dragoon have passive upkeep on their buffs via their AoEs now. Ninja upkeeps Huton via AoE. Samurai upkeeps the haste and damage buffs via its two step combo. Monk, which previously did in fact accrue greased lightning via AoE prior to the removal of greased lightning stacks, still extends Twin Snakes via AoE.

Hell, Warrior, an *actual tank,* also upkeeps Storm's Eye via their normal combo, and that's the better consideration to make anyway because doing a single target combo to get the buff *while* you're trying to hold aggro on multiple mobs *and* pull to the next pack suuucks.

I am genuinely not going to even attempt to touch upon how much this obliterates the concept of playing tank defensively in any content that's not a trash pull in a dungeon.

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this just means cant pull big anymore of course your gonna i can easily pull 3 monsters use aoe 1-2 twice and hit each other with combo and keep aggro are you saying you cant? or is it that you cant pull big anymore and troll your teammates anymore without dying? is that it. cause that just means your awful only way you know how to tank is make other ppl wish you didnt tank from the start might as well role another job. in realm reborn tanks use to mark target. are you saying your mentality incapable doing that are that awful doing more then 1 button aoe spawn


Why is it every-time anyone mentions Mitigation that reduces damage taken and helps your healer and other people in your party. isn't a boring copy and paste job already existing abilities looked so frowned upon by game director himself. not once was other ways disgusted or even talked about. how you can do damage and damage mitigation at the same time. how is over-powered if never been attempted. things cant keep going like this. as is. system is flawed every tank how do suggest we handle the large amounts of trolls, sprouts, or elitist tanks think so great that don't need pop cooldowns. they need do something not encourage these bad behaviours. tanks pulling trains. letting healers get aggro. not using cool-downs. pulling so much that they make the healer pop so many cooldowns on single pull just keep alive. I mean leveling 1-80 should probably taught them by now. that hey.... "stands in red pools kinda hurts"

this stuff isn't getting fixed anytime soon. and it should.

Maybe it's more a "the way they do content" more than tanks in general, but there's too much 24x content that don't really need more than one tank, other than to absorb a tank-buster. I doubt there are many people out there who play tanks to be low-end DPS for most of a raid. Many encounters, however, trivialize the role by asking for 3 and only give 1, maybe 2 a job. In those cases, does the left-out tank get enough opportunities to learn their role in a pseudo-raiding environment?

Which tank has a 20+ button rotation?
20+ buttons, yeah, sure. But a good third of them are defensive..

I don't know, I personally like the tanks gameplay in XIV...
The main problem with tanks in easy content is the lack of "punishment" when you screw up.

DPS/Healer screw up on two or three mechanics in a dungeon -> they die.
Tanks screw up 6 times -> Healers adjust.

I really liked the doom mechanic in Delubrum, and I hope they use that in Endwalker instead of using vuln stacks.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

also from what i'm understanding is that anything remotely feels like a tank and is not dps skill isn't bad for tank job? you say that no one cares about 4 man content. when I've died more times in that cause someone elses tanking stupidity other then pulling to big forgetting tank stance. not popping cooldowns. making healer tank a tank buster not keeping boss still of course this is someone elses fault not your own Ive died less in raids then dungeons i died less in savage content then i did in 4 man dungeons. not giving caring bout 4 man content the thing leads up to raiding. is why when start raid get one those special snowflakes dont know what the hell there doing and think there doing nothing wrong. refuse to accept anyone help

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I'm just going to quote this as the vast majority of what you say boils down to this and that is , bad plays are bad, we need to dumb the jobs down so that they don't mess up.

No.

The bad players need to improve. Yes, you might see more deaths in dungeons than in raids, but that is because the people in raids know how to play the job and get the most out of it, whilst also doing mechanics. Also, I have no idea who you run dungeons with, but I have done them as tanks, healers and DPS and I very rarely see a death at all.

The problem with trying to cater to the lowest denominator is that you make the gameplay boring for people that do want to improve and get better. Your whole idea is to remove mitigation buttons and bake them into the basic combo so that you don't need to think about them. This is not an improvement. However, even if you do that, I guarantee there will still be someone who will screw it up, what do you do then? Dumb it down even more? I can say with some confidence that even if you reduced all jobs to 3 buttons, tere will still be someone who messes up. Even if you make the next skill glow like a christmas tree, someone will mess it up. So the question is, where do you draw this line? Most people will say, where the line is now is a good spot in regards to the mitigation kit and the damaging kit.

you also say you want to reduce pulls to single packs to accomodate your changes but again, you are just taking away the fun from the tanks that know what they are doing. I said you need to critisice your ideas to make you think, how will this affect low level play, mid level play and high level play. However, you have not done this, you have just focused on how to make it easier for the low level players.

Also, I play exclusively on controller, Paladin has the most actions to put on the crossbars with 33 in total. Shield Bash is essentially useless when Low Blow is more than enough, so you can reduce it down to 32, which is exactly enough to fit on 2 crossbars. I also play quite a wide variety of jobs and never have issues with space, so that argument is just not valid.