Given the backlash that has been shown in regards to the Ranged Role due to SMN's upbringing this patch, we need to take a look at what's wrong with the role as well as look at the other applicable roles and understand why they're more desirable as a job than a Physical Ranged Job.
The Physical Ranged Role has generally been an issue since 5.05 due to the discrepancy in DPS and utility, since SE wanted to attempt to reduce the amount of raid synergies available; however, the new issue is that SE has severely imbalanced their jobs with the changes and QoL they did in Patch 5.1. By reducing BRD's DoTs, they effectively neutered its DPS since a majority of its damage comes from those DoTs being up 100% of the time with Snapshotting buffs being very important to BRD in the long-run with Iron Jaws. Still, they have issues with Apex Arrow, the capstone AoE skill that's focused on Repertoire gain, mainly because it's a very, very disappointing capstone that doesn't have a good payoff at 100 gauge. In the time it takes the gauge to charge, you would already have done way over the potency you would've gotten from Apex Arrow(even Refulgent does AT LEAST OVER HALF). If they had just about doubled or made Apex Arrow 1,000 potency with falloff damage, it would've placed BRD in a better spot in 5.05.
For the likes of DNC and MCH, the potency increases were helpful, but barely did much at all since the DPS Gap is still high enough to where it's only the 1% Damage that's just keeping the entire Ranged role in raid. Given that Yoshida said that player skill was to be valued over jobs, this is not being upheld due to the arguments of both the substantial DPS, utility, and buffs SMN brings to the raid. Though, this isn't necessarily about SMN; we need to take a look back at 5.05 and look at the DPS Gaps.
Everyone that was a Ranged DPS or Caster was trying to figure out why the hell BLM got TWO spots instead of just one; the reason why? It was because its damage went through the roof in Shadowbringers and actually got to become an actual selfish DPS like it's supposed to be. The downside? The damage difference was too high for both the Caster and Ranged Roles. We're talking at least 1,000-2,000 rDPS just because BLM has the best aDPS.
The other reason why Ranged DPS is so low is supposedly because of "utility tax". Let's check the utility count shall we?
MCH - 1; Tactician.
BRD - 2; Nature's Minne and Troubadour, plus BRD Song Buffs.
DNC - FIVE - Standard/Tech Step(5% Damage), Curing Waltz, Shield Samba, Improvisation(+10% Healing)
MCH is the strongest aDPS in the Ranged role while DNC is the best rDPS in the role, which is justified, but if you check the numbers, All Ranged are at the bottom in terms of rDPS. Why is this?
Taking data from top rDPS contributions in Voidwalker since it's the dummy fight:
Casters
BLM: 17,485
SMN: 16,485
RDM: 15,871
Ranged
MCH: 14,990
BRD: 14,851
DNC: 15,700
The difference between the Ranged and Casters is very large mainly because of utility. RDM suffers from this issue as well due to how Raise is basically part of its 'utility', when it barely gets used in speedruns; what's worse, their buff is heavily comp dependent on them being the only Caster. In MCH's case, they just don't do enough damage to be able to be considered except when only thinking about that "1% Role Buff".
In fact, MCH should be doing close to around what both DRG and MNK are pulling right now given it's a rather selfish DPS that only uses Tactician instead of being near the bottom. BRD suffers from SE being scared we're going to wind up with a Heavensward comp again or with it dominating the Ranged Role(which in reality, they never will given DNC is here with a lot of rDPS). DNC suffers only because its rDPS isn't high enough to compete with the likes of a caster like SMN, even though it feels wholly balanced in its current form(just needs QoL tweaks on Improvisation).
We still have a gap of at least 1,000 rDPS from both BRD and MCH respectively to 2/3rds of the Caster Role. Another thought is the free mobility tax on top of the utility tax. Being able to move during mechanics and still maintain rotation has been a crux of the Ranged role since ARR and excluding HW, but the balance becomes an issue when a job(SMN, in this case) receives proper QoL for being a very busy caster(almost NIN busy in 5.05) and damage potency buffs on top of it just because Egi Assault becomes GCD.
With SMN being able to Egi Assault for movement now, it heavily chips into the Ranged Role's niche of being mobile for just about anything due to those two Spells having two charges on a recast of 30s. If SMN has large outputs in damage yet the MCH doesn't have as much, how is a decent balance to be achieved? This is a mistake yet again which is extremely familiar from 4.1 when they buffed SMN too much that it kicked BLM out of parties; except this time it's getting ready to lock out an entire role.
If they're to fix this, they need to consider the following changes:
- Reverting BRD back to its original DoT potency, and improving Apex Arrow's payoff for charge time potency(weak atm).
- Increasing MCH's DPS so it can be a viable choice when pitted against a Caster like SMN(as well as being within a decent range of BRD) along with QoL fixes to ping reliance when it comes to Heat Blast during Hyperdrive for easier performance.
- Adjusting RDM's raid buff to where it cancontribute meaningfully regardless of comp.(Not Ranged, I know, but it's been an issue since Stormblood)
- Fixing DNC's Improvisation for consistent Esprit Gains akin to SAM's Meditate.
That's all I have for feedback. I'm open for discussion and understanding.
The Future of the "Ranged" Role - Feedback for 5.1 Onward.
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11-06-2019, 02:57 PMHyperiusUltimaThe Future of the "Ranged" Role - Feedback for 5.1 Onward.
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11-06-2019, 04:40 PMGalvuu
I actually agree with most of your sentiment, but don't use E2S to cement your argument.
Using E2S actually discredits it- it's an easy dummy fight with little movement where you can keep near perfect uptime. This "masks" one of ranged dps' biggest advantages- their mobility and ability to keep uptime in movement-heavy mechanics/mechanics that force you to disengage.
Use Titan for the comparison and the results are valid.
I think that if SE wants to keep this idea of "support tax" they should make the party buff 5% to guarantee that bringing a ranged is better overall for rdps. This also lets them really give them unusual support tools (defensive or otherwise) rather than strictly offensive support. -
11-06-2019, 06:40 PMCKNovel
I think you should not used top percentile performance or E2S but rather a mix of multiple fights due to how these jobs manage multiple target or downtime.
E3S and E4S makes the BLM drop due to mobility needed and that's where SMN shines.
Also use 95th percentile, that's basically the "Casual raid top performance" where anyone who knows his job can make a good performance with BiS gear.
I'd even push a bit and consider to use UWU numbers since it forces you to move many times for mechanics. But even there you can see the ranged numbers really low, even if their kit aren't complete at lv70.
Mobility is obviously not the argument anymore since SMN is pretty mobile (BLM is still mobile but the community seems to think the opposite).
Ranged are still based on Stormblood balance but back in Stormblood there was so many utility and boost to ranged DPS. But there's no piercing debuff anymore, no more need for refresh and no more of our extremely strong mitigation. Dismantle, Palisade, Troubadour, Foe's Requiem, Hypercharge, Refresh... Those don't exist anymore, or are reworked.
MCH is the strongest of the three but still lags 1k behind SMN, BLM, MNK and SAM. And BRD lags 500 DPS behind MCH.
If they instead nerfed the strongest job and buffed the lower one with care, we would not be in this unbalanced mess. Guess we should be happy that the ranged role is not dead, only crippled? -
11-06-2019, 07:06 PMMyon88
I really feel for machinists tbh, they bring the exact same amount of utility as a black mage (tactician == addle), but do 2000-3000 dps less simply by virtue of being a 'ranged'. How nice.
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11-06-2019, 07:52 PMReiMakotoI understand SEs design philosophy behind this, class with easy 100% uptime should be less than one with high probability of losing it. However in practice the fights are not designed in a way that means classes wont have near 100% uptime anyway, so range just end up gimped for no reason, and theres only 2 ways to fix this, force downtime on melees and casters through mechanics , (near impossible because then smn would just be king) or buff rangedQuote:
Originally Posted by Myon88
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11-06-2019, 10:35 PMHyperiusUltimaI’ll reconsider and look at the metrics for Titan instead, then. I’ll update the OP when I get home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvuu
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11-06-2019, 10:40 PMHyperiusUltimaI’d say buffed Ranged. Their baseline is so bad you can only consider them because of the 1% Role Buff. That, and Machinists have a more complex rotation than BLM.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
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11-06-2019, 11:25 PMLina_SlayerTo be fair it kind of happens already, at 75th Titan percentile MCH (the strongest ranged) is ~800 (or 6%) behind the best dps on that percentile, while on 99th it's ~1,2k (or 8%) behind, meaning it does comparatively better on less optimized play, the problem is that again the tax is just too high, if at best possible play the ranged role was like 1 or 2% behind it'd be fair, not ~10% behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
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11-06-2019, 11:57 PMHyperiusUltima
Ok, so in addition to what I said in OP as recommended by @Galvuu, here’s the metrics we have for Titan(can’t edit OP on mobile):
Casters
BLM: 16,062
SMN: 15,470
RDM: 14,984
Ranged
MCH: 14,336
BRD: 13,923
DNC: 14,466
We’re still miles away from Casters in this highly mobile fight.Why is that?
Triplecast, Swiftcast, and Xenoglossy(and any Procs included for BLM) give plenty of mobility for BLM, albeit Aetherial Manipulation use is rather heavy.
SMN on the other hand does not give a damn because of the Egi Assaults as said in the OP before discussion. Let alone, it has Ruin IV to act as a mobility tool, essentially making it nearly almost no downtime because of movement for SMN.
For RDM though, they seem balanced for Titan in particular since you’re having to stop every other cast to hardcast. -
11-07-2019, 12:23 AMAkiudowell i would disagree on rdm dmg being balanced compared to the ranged on titan by virtue of them having a rezz which while i in no way think should be taxed as heavily as it was before patch indeed has value, in all honesty a lot more value than any support the physical ranged offer, also, redmages can allready get by quite well as far as movement is concerned , in that regard i really don't see the need for them to be above the physical, i believe "having a somewhat harder time moving" is a fair tradeoff for "can rezz and cure in a pinch" . mind you you really shouldn't use Max parses in particular, 95% is a way better metric by the fact alone that max basically is the one try where even the most immobile caster simply didn't have to move as mechanics aligned as favorible as possible, potentially even artificially guided by the group. (aside from some other points, but that ones basically a given while looking at max)Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
with that being said, mind you thats just my opinion but
at 95% (current patch only) redmage has a 287~ dps lead on mch and is still 250 below the weakest melee if square would buff redmage by another 150~ dps as i believe the potential to chain rezz indeed still gets overvalued by them (it is awesome for progression, thats without a question, but no amount of damage nerfing will change that, they could literally make redmage deal 5k dps and hardcore progression raiders would still use it to learn the fights before switching to smn or blm) and would bring up the physical ranged to the same level as redmage balance may not be perfect but at least be way better than what we have now, samurai at 95% in this scenario would still have a 600 dps lead on the physical ranged but anymore could hurt the melees as is, so in my opinion that would be the point where the next step would be to look for a way to get the melees a bit closer together and maybe bring summoner down like 100 dps or so