I've never looked into the lore backgrounds of the many classes and jobs, so I'm wondering what makes a class a class and a job a job.
After going though the XIV Wiki I noticed Louisoix was listed as a conjurer and not a white mage. And Kan-E-Senna seems to the only white mage I can find in the current XIV timeline? Also, Raubahn is a gladiator, not a paladin.
Are the job crystals just gameplay mechanics to quicken you into a job? In an ideal XIV, would classes like lancer and archer be there own jobs and be as strong as a bard and dragoon? How come jobs like samurai don't start out as, say, a swordsman class... or something?
I've no idea how this works story-wise. I really wanted to be an archer until I found out that I had to switch to a bard at level 30 in order to complete the content effectively.
Class vs job?
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08-06-2019, 03:40 AMcosmicsynthClass vs job?
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08-06-2019, 04:04 AMXia_ThasThe easiest explanation for this is that all of the Expansion jobs don't start at level 1. MCH DRK and AST started at 30 which is when you'd do the Job change quests on the base jobs. So because of that you just started with that Job's soul crystal. Same with RDM, SAM, GNB, and DNC starting at 50 / 60.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicsynth
The only added Job that had a base job was Rouge -> NIN since it was added in ARR before the expansions. -
08-06-2019, 01:12 PMNaria
The job crystals get mentioned in quests quite frequently (mostly job quests) so no they are not just a gameplay mechanic. Jobs from the expansions start out as jobs and the reason why is touched on in those job quests. Lore wise job crystals contain the impressions of skills and memories of their previous wielders and therefor function as sort of a cheat to help people master complex skills quickly. That said the job crystal doesn't enable you to use all the skills in of itself (lore-wise). The wielder still has to practice and refine their own skills to master a job. This is why the ARR jobs go from class->job as by learning the prerequisite class you now have a basis from which to understand and build on the skills and memories granted to you by a job crystal. To unlock expansion jobs you have to have at least one job at 50 so they storyline just kinda of handwave the lack of class based off of your previous experience in combat and in using job crystals. There are only two jobs in the game where you start off with a blank job crystal, Blue Mage and Machinist.
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08-06-2019, 06:50 PMEnkidoh
The difference between the two mostly stems from the fact that classes are Disciplines currently taught by Guilds with a regimented structure. Jobs on the other hand, are Disciplines from earlier eras that either fell out of use and were forgotten due to their practioners dying out (SMN, SCH, MNK), either the Job or their skills are strictly controlled due to their practioners being exclusive or secretive (DRG, BRD, PLD, RDM, DRK), are from foreign lands or are not native to Eorzea (AST, WAR, GNB, NIN, SAM, DNC) or have even been made outright illegal (BLM, WHM). And some have been made literally out of whole cloth then and there (MCH, BLU).
Hence why Jobs use soul crystals, they're something of a shortcut to mastering their skills quickly rather than using the more 'traditional' Guild-based teaching system classes use. They effectively serve as a conduit for memories of past practioners of that Job, allowing you to draw on those skills while also simultaneously recording your own memories into it (MCH and BLU's ones are literal blank slates though so you're basically winging it with those).
That's the basics of the lore for them as I understand it anyway. -
08-07-2019, 12:22 AMTinyRedLeafIf you're familiar with Dungeons & Dragons, especially with 3.5 edition rules, the easiest way to think about this is to equate "jobs" in FFXIV with "prestige classes" in 3.5E D&D. Jobs, as implemented in A Realm Reborn, are essentially "specialisations" of the base class from which they grow.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicsynth
This is, to a certain extent, supported by the type of roles adopted by normal adventuers in Eorzea: Very few of them perform as "jobs", and most of them are categorised in the far more common adventurer "classes". As Enkidoh said, the classes are martial/arcane disciplines currently taught by guilds, and are therefore more common and accessible to run-of-the-mill adventurers.
Jobs are more exotic in comparison, and far less common. The dragoons, for example, are Ishgard's special forces, and canonically, only about 10 are still alive in the city today. Similarly, paladins are supposed to be part of the Sultansworn, the personal guard of Ul'dah's royal family. Summoners were as good as extinct until A Realm Reborn, until you, the WoL, revived the ancient Allagan art, as was the art of scholarly Nymian magic.
...but this distinction has been blurring since Heavensward. As mentioned, machinists were a completely new "job" and, according to its own lore, it was in no way exclusive, and was in fact meant to be the fastest way to arm as many as commoners as possible in Ishgard, to bolster the city's defences against the Dravanian Horde. And then there are the samurai, for example, who practise a discipline that's across the Far East, and is "exotic" only to everyday Eorzeans.
The thing to remember is that the classes are artefacts from the 1.0 version of FFXIV, the original roles that launched with the game. For better or worse, that is the legacy inherited by today's FFXIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicsynth
I think the original intention was for the classes to be more generalised than the specialised "jobs", and this was reflected in the greater number of "role skills" that classes could carry compared to jobs.
But that concept was never given proper support as development of the game progressed, and there never was any content in which the base classes could still be relevant past level 30. Which is a bit of a pity, but that is how it is.
From a lore perspective, I would think there's nothing to say that a highly experienced lancer can't be as effective a combatant as a dragoon, for example. But the game mechanics, unfortunately, wasn't designed that way.
I suppose one way to think about it is that it distinguishes you, the WoL, from all the other adventuers in Eorzea, who are mere "classes", while you are the master of one or more jobs. -
08-07-2019, 02:10 AMLineageRazorWhenever I run into another player on a supposedly "rare" job like WHM, my personal rationalization is that they aren't REALLY a WHM, but someone else who's learned the ways of White Magic through some independent means. He may even have a Soulstone, but it isn't E-Towa-Cant's! :PQuote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the introduction of "Jobs" something that Yoshi P introduced into the game? And that the original classes were intended to be the actual playable roles, not just a stopgap before the "real" jobs?Quote:
The thing to remember is that the classes are artefacts from the 1.0 version of FFXIV, the original roles that launched with the game. For better or worse, that is the legacy inherited by today's FFXIV.
I think the original intention was for the classes to be more generalised than the specialised "jobs", and this was reflected in the greater number of "role skills" that classes could carry compared to jobs.
It was my understanding that Tanaka wanted to go a different route than FFXI (which provided MMO versions of classic FFXI jobs from across many games) and create an entirely (mostly) new assortment of classes. Yoshi, in order to create appeal for the failing game, brought back the classic jobs to attract the Final Fantasy fans.
Speaking as someone who never actually played 1.0, for all the problems the game had, the original class system was INTERESTING, if nothing else. Now it is just a vestige. There were some half-hearted efforts to make it relevant in the early days of ARR (the cross-class flexibility) but nowadays serves only as something to get away from at the earliest possible. -
08-07-2019, 01:18 PMRodger
I see it as more of an unused social endeavor fossil. There are a lot of ways to use a class and I have thought of quite a few, however they all seem to be some sort of shenanigan.
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08-07-2019, 04:03 PMGwaeronAlso worth mentioning, that even after Yoshida took over, while they did add some gear with the job listed as "Required", they also added gear with classes listed as "Required". For example, look up Astrolabe, Avengers or Rampager on http://ffxiv.mozk-tabetai.com/Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
So the idea seems to have been for them to exist in parallel even after the introduction of jobs. -
08-07-2019, 06:08 PMMistakeNot
The classes are things just about anyone can learn if they apply themselves - no real restrictions on who can become one, or difficulties in finding a teacher.
Jobs tend to be far rarer, and often restricted one way or another.
White Mages for example have been pretty much illegal to everyone except the Padjals ever since misuse of White and Black magic caused a prior calamity. An exception is made for the Warrior of Light just because they are so super-special.
Bards on the other hand aren't illegal in any way, but there are very few of them around anymore who can teach you. The guy you find to teach you is just about the only qualified bard still around.
That's the difference story-wise anyway.
Jobcrystals work (in-game) to accelerate the learning process so you can learn in a matter on months what should take years.
Mostly they are a game-mechanical thing which shouldn't be thought too hard about.
As for why the newer jobs do not have a base class, that is simply because the current developer team does not like the class->job progression and would like to do away with it. -
08-09-2019, 12:05 PMcosmicsynth
Thank you all for your answers. Very informative.