This is 100% a for fun thread just chatting ideas, none of us are in charge of Square Enix here so if you're not into someone else's concept it's no big deal.
In essence this is continuing a conversation that began in another thread and opening it for other people to jump in if they want! I'll be including some quotes after the header so things are easy to follow, but basically it's a conversation about what weird or spooky humanoid races might be good matches for FFXIV and why some things might work, might not work, and various possible approaches.
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Originally Posted by Shougun
...I believe that SE has an ever growing void for "weird", imo all the current races are pretty standard (human being stretched up and down, I know there is anti-beastmen lore but that lore is being weakened drastically over time to the point of beastmen inside Ul'dah lol). Meanwhile other MMO offer some weird choices (like being undead, Charr, etc). I would agree that splitting a popular demand race is not the way to get to a weird race though.
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Originally Posted by JaywalkerI know I did a lot of crit on why I'd have misgivings about faces that look too animal specifically for FFXIV (would not have the same crit for e.g. Skyrim), but I do think spooky/eerie/a little monstrous looking could be really interesting and I'd actually love to bounce ideas around with you on that if you're game?
Offhand, there are a few things that seem like they might be limitations with FFXIV specifically compared to other MMOs. One is that Final Fantasy has a definite aesthetic to it and plays heavy into the pretty, cute, or awe-inspiring. So while weird/spooky is doable I suspect it would end up balanced with the overall setup so someone could look and immediately pinpoint that the character is in a final fantasy game. Another thing is that within the series, even Ananta are filed under beast tribes rather than humanoids. So in all likelihood weird would remain tied to basically humanoid, although still with wiggle room. Third thing is smaller, but essentially I've noticed that it seems to regarded as a given that any features showing up in FFXIV will be features that showed up in a previous game. Technically they can totally try something new, but it seems more likely they'd stick to the pattern.
The reason I've been going LUNARIANS is not because I think we need humans + funny colors so much as I figured a kind of mystical/alien vibe that was pushed into weirder territory could be really fun! Are there any other final fantasy races you think might lend themselves to weird with a little interpretation, without just sliding into full beast tribe territory?
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Originally Posted by ShougunFor why we don't have beast race, I definitely agree they're not keen on it although I'm not entirely sure why besides perhaps afraid of clip city but then we've got tails, horns, and hair that clip through stuff anyways. In general I think while there might be lore and some fears that push against a beast-like race I feel that if you just put a little water on it they'd break apart like wet tissue paper (like "people hate beastmen" meanwhile Ul'dah is casually harboring some lizard folk lol). So I guess my suggestions even if you tell me to calm down a little bit will still always be a bit weird lol. Although for below I'll try to not ask for a literal lion's mouth :P.
I believe, in line with what you're saying with Lunarians, that SE could do to add a lot of variations without causing too much of a budget increase because the model shapes wont be too far apart (and perhaps some weirder stuff). So if they explode their clan options out (maybe not even call them a clan anymore lol, just a sub-group really - I think we could see a lot more).
With your Lunarian example Yoshida mentioned, and other FF games have already visited, we may see moon. So to see moon people makes sense. Because they're a variation of hyur they wouldn't really cause issues for armor, just need to slap them into lore and hope there are no memory concerns (races don't cause the game to need a restructure of memory).
So to me, I think you could have a lot of fun with the current races while keeping the amount of different shaped/portion gear semi-consistent. Just to be clear I still want weird shapes lol, I'm just going to use current shapes for the below since part of what you asked was trying to tone the beast down and be already FF related.
Void-born Au Ra:
First and my favorite example, Au Ra concept art
For the crazy bones that might clip, I'd say let the long ones clip its no worse than what already happens and for like the smaller 3d scales just "hide" them under armor when logic applies. Besides perhaps the most demon like those faces should be fine for the game too (but some of our masks are pretty scary and NPC are fine, so eh..).
Maybe for lore: Iirc Au Ra relate more to the void than dragons so lets use that for the story. One day a scout group from a reclusive mountain tribe of Au Ra wandering through ancient Allaghan ruins found a device that attracted their attention, giving a sense of calling and feelings that it may be whispering- if only they could hear it better. They took it back to their tribe deep in the mountains, where it soon became a fascination to the whole tribe. Water and food became secondary and the facilities began to fall apart, but the tribe just moved closer and closer till their breath buffeted this strange object. As groups of the tribe's people came back from their missions it became too many for those in the back to see this lovely device. So they began to push. Those distracted from the glory that was became enraged and began to violently squabble back and forth. This broke out into a full on brawl with much bloodshed. Too distracted to look at their feet the blood was defying gravity and moving towards and into the device, beginning to glow a sickly red. After a few days the device had it's fill, it began to hum causing the ruckus to die down. A were few dead but most just badly injured, everyone starving. Here the device violently ripped the core of their mountain homestead from it's place and thrust it into a void much like the one you find in FFXI Limbus.
Once in this dark limbus and after the panic had settled down they began their cursed trapped life, creating a sort of shadow kingdom and kingdom no one knew existed. The time they spent there was strange and didn't move at a pace like ours. Over their generations their offspring began to show signs of the void in their scales. The problem for them is they've reached the edge of attainable space of their little pocket and are now forced to keep strict birthing laws and punish those into the endless abyss who fail to follow. Some have grown accustomed to their little kingdom but others have never stopped trying to get out. Our WoD/WoL will trek into this mountain and begin to peel away the gate that keeps them sealed away. Once we have access to Limbus we will have access to this type of Au Ra (race option) and will help the shadow kingdom in powering bridges to other areas of limbus not known of previously via bridges of light (and suffer a lot of political fallout from those who differ in how the void-born kingdom should continue to exist).
Later lore could reveal the Allahgan were trying to see if they could create/summon a void primal one powered by dark crystals, the facility found had been emergency shutdown (while Allahgan were on top) because the orb began to whisper and temper in usual ways (void-temper). What was found by Au Ra was the device that held a pocket of portable void space created by the Allahgans as a breeding ground for a void primal, that pocket known as Limbus (and the Au Ra therein trapped on one of Limbus's sectors).
A very neat lore point could be finding out they were able to send out a few via a great spell that cost them some of their best mages (which is why they haven't done it again, no one is good enough to do it again yet). This was in advance of your arrival to the city, but they haven't heard back from these sent-forth Au Ra. So you could technically start the game as one and it'd just be on the way through this forced exit of limbus you had a concussion (aetherial concussion, lol) that removed memory of how you came to be (so you didn't remember to go back and help save your people), when you finally make it back in the story there could be a few special dialog lines.
The male Au Ra would be a lot of things added/extended (scales/horns), face options, but the general skeleton shape/model would be the same or at least a scale of the same (just things added onto it)
The female Au Ra might require another race's skeleton with tweaks, to be more like the succubus (maybe even Viera skeleton scaled down slightly and made "plumper")
Mammet Vivi (FFIX), Yuke like:
Ul'dah had a sister city, Sil'dih. (in game spoiler incoming). Tl;dr story is Ul'dah sent a powder, that turned the dead into zombies, to Sil'dih ending it's great reign. Here I suggest that deep within the empire, trapped by the city's own grand populace, there exists some still alive and fighting back. Due to many reasons, including endless attacks from the dead at all times, diseases growing, and the powder's effects mutating, the Sil'dih grew weaker and weaker with no solution in sight. Never to give up they devised a means to never tire and to grow resistant to the harms that came their way, it only cost them their body. The Sil'dih transferred their mind and soul into a very advanced type of mammet, one that would allow them to fend off the dark, the disease, and the tire in their bones.
To keep their minds and soul in place they ALWAYs have some sort of equipment on (they're never naked, you can choose their "undergarment" look). When they wear gear like black mage outfit they will look literally like a type of vivi (with scale of body, eye shapes, and perhaps shadowy wisp customization options).
Through the miner's guild and Ul'dah's work (with our Nanamo leading the way) they uncover one of these advanced mammets who were badly damage, so they appeared like a very advanced broken mammet but we quickly find out they actually house a soul and through some repair were able to receive a message from the mammet (person in this case). Then follows the ardious task of clearing out an entire civilization's population save a few hundred vivis, and with that we could also get an epic rebuild Sil'dih and underground magic housing district :).
Keep in mind because they're lallafel souls put inside a mammet that technically the body shape is a bit free to match that of the other races as well (big vivi, little vivi). Also this would probably be one of the easiest races to design besides emoting the eyes which will be very important for emotion lol.
Yuke:
I could come up with a few more clans for races we already have - including Galka like for Roe (tails be back). Also in this thread we all basically came up with Lion-Viera if that isn't a thing then we could make it a clan request lol (or if it is lion then we could come up with the softer feol smoll bunny to compensate the lion-viera).
Esper/Primal born:
Another race idea from other FF but might be a bit unique (and can use some Viera assets)- I think you could pull a Worgen like WoW and make an Esper like Terra Branford. Worgens transform in combat to their true form (werewolf from human). Although I think you could make it always that way too, perhaps even more weird (but interesting?) they have normal skin with their accentuated nails, hair, unique face choices, bit different shaped body (but still pretty "human like"); however, when it rains (or combat, whatever trigger) they show their true colors (literally lol), their limbs accentuated further, their skin color radiates lightly (with a different color), and their hair lifts as if it was high on DBZ sayian power (not exactly but similarly "fuller").
I'm not suggesting they have to be literally primals or whatever btw, for someone who just whipped out their lore book and put on their war face lol.
To be honest these could be like or literally be related to your Lunarian idea.
https://i.imgur.com/kbiFHkT.png
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/77/5b...3fec1b48ff.png
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Originally Posted by Jaywalker...with playable beast races in FFXIV basically I think that equipping gear over the humanoid frame where the gear looks 100% like a beast tribe character (possibly baby/mini if over a lalafell) might be the most effective solution given there's not a lot of variation in beast tribe body types. That said, I'd love if they added dye options and at least a few variations of hypothetical beast gear! Ex. like if it's filling a helmet slot, you have a standard beast head or you could use an alternate beast head option where it is wearing a funny hat. I know people wear vanu heads for example so part of me is wondering if SE could push this option further?
I also did a ridic spiel before but short version is that beast characters tend to use the same face and body models as each other in-game. I figure that maintaining consistency is good for immersion on the one hand, but on the other I also worry excess customization might end up as a wasted resource. For the amount of detail in FFXIV, people might not notice subtle differences in animal features the way they would humanoid features.
Position I'm coming from is like say you have a cat owner. That owner (who has had years of getting used to their pet's specific facial/body features) would be able to pick out their own cat even if you threw it into a sea of identically colored cats. However, if you asked other people they'd probably give you a very frightened look because in their eyes all of these animals look the same. That's the kind of phenomenon I worry might happen for beast folk, if that makes sense?
Anyhow I will be catching up reading your reply in more detail but basically I think we should have a way people who want to run around as beast races can for all intents and purposes, possibly with multiple dye and armor options since those are immediately noticeable. I'm just not sure if putting the option in character creator specifically would be effective for this game.
I owe a reply at this point, but this is what came up so far! Hopefully it makes sense with how it's organized, so if anyone wants to jump in again feel free!Quote:
Originally Posted by ShougunOne concept I thought might take the beastman issue out for good, while giving SE lots of control of restrictions and lowering barrier to entry (lore issues/etc), is to introduce a Majora mask shop right in the city and throw a few kids around in these costumes. Majora Mask for those who don't know is a great Legend of Zelda game where Link puts on mask and inhabits that spirit/concept for a while (may be taken off to return to normal), the whole spirit thing doesn't need to be in FFXIV but a basic concept would be a Majora Mask is a very powerful glamour (and in the case of Zelda game, gives some powers).
The unique part of a masked costume like this being is your gear (some restrictions may apply) could appear over it, unlike if you appear as a grand company leader you can't undress them ;).
In this way they could make a mask for the wolf race for example, but you're not a beastman.
Also please ignore the ugly deleted post bits, I went full-grandma with this tech struggle. Lessons were learned it will not happen again.
Fan Ideas/Speculation: Weird Humanoid Races
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02-07-2019, 03:15 PMJaywalkerFan Ideas/Speculation: Weird Humanoid Races
This is 100% a for fun thread just chatting ideas, none of us are in charge of Square Enix here so if you're not into someone else's concept it's no big deal.
In essence this is continuing a conversation that began in another thread and opening it for other people to jump in if they want! I'll be including some quotes after the header so things are easy to follow, but basically it's a conversation about what weird or spooky humanoid races might be good matches for FFXIV and why some things might work, might not work, and various possible approaches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
I owe a reply at this point, but this is what came up so far! Hopefully it makes sense with how it's organized, so if anyone wants to jump in again feel free!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Also please ignore the ugly deleted post bits, I went full-grandma with this tech struggle. Lessons were learned it will not happen again. -
02-07-2019, 03:18 PMRamessesQuote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
This little chap is not weird enough for you? He's actually quite popular these days... massive surge in celebrity status based on a recent trailer and wot not...
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02-07-2019, 03:27 PMTitaniaZeroStep 1: Make thread/Post (make it short)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
Step 2: Edit post/OP and add all that you want.
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit!
(Or that is what I've heard anyway. I don't make big posts. Like... Ever) -
02-07-2019, 03:30 PMJaywalkerOTL thank you. I can try and fix that up!Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniaZero
You just saved lives with this formatting advice TitaniaZero, thank you. -
02-07-2019, 03:45 PMJaywalkerHe is a king among characters, we mere players are not worthy of his majestic form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramesses
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02-07-2019, 10:01 PMJaywalkerOKAY. No more technical nonsense!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Really love the ideas! Honestly voidsent au ra would prob be insanely popular given how the community has been lamenting the original designs, mammets/Vivi is a very fun and classic design, and honestly there might be room for some interesting lore complications with espers/primal-born. Had trouble seeing what you put for Yuke but going to go back and see if I can figure it out.
I do think it sounds a little bit like you're going more for third subtypes for a couple of options (mammets being a kind of offshoot for lalas, voidsent au ra being an offshoot of au ra) but tbh we do have room for that. After all Othardian Roegadyn like Gosetsu exist but aren't in the character creator.
Speaking as someone who aspires to reference the classic black mage/Vivi look, one thing I wonder at a little is whether there'd be enough customization options or whether it would be more efficient as a kind of gear you could don?
A Majora's Mask-style setup for beastman gear sounds brilliant. I seriously think that would go a long way to helping out folks who are interested in playing a beast race efficiently. :D
Tried brainstorming a little for Lunarian aesthetic, came out with this:
https://66.media.tumblr.com/62bc6176...jyto1_1280.jpg
If you feel like it, I'd be happy to take suggestions and play with features (not just for Lunarian, could try esper/primal born a little too possibly) to see how things look. I tried to differentiate with a very flat face, droopy sanpaku eyes, and droopy ears along with some gravity-defying hair but I think this isn't weird enough and looks too similar to elezen.
Also, spent a few minutes going through options--besides Lunarians as a possible alien/star people sort of race, in terms of existing options there are variations off of Ancients, robots, and Gnomes I think? Some wound up being too normal (Selkies and Clavats) so not gonna throw them over here, and others were too animal-specific or had elements that looked like logistical problems. Orcs came up once, but I think Roegadyn filled that niche already.
Some ideas for how these might be implemented to FFXIV...
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20120706153627
Lunarians have started descending to Hydaelyn following the fall of Dalamud. They have no idea what on earth is happening in Eorzea or its neighboring nations, people have adapted a bit since their arrival following the Calamity so we don't see the full culture shock, and their numbers are not significant to cause widespread panic. Kind of a weird twist on an invasion story, they're coming more to scout and gather information while offering aid as they get bound into the story of the world. Their lore might be possible to address if a quest with a + next to it is placed in adventurer's guilds at level one accessibility or around there. Additionally, them not having strong presence in any of the nations or much lore shown would be explainable because they are literally from the moon. Warrior of Light has basically descended as an explorer or scout. Alternatively, Lunarians could fall to earth or something like meteors occasionally and get raised by established races if people want to make up alternate backgrounds. Plenty of possibilities! Also aliens with a kind of mystic, otherworldly tone to them would stand out compared to other options. Visually I think there's room to really experiment hard with proportions too. They seem to have gray skin sometimes, which could be fun for gray alien type references. Could be made either tall and lean or could be very short (like between lalafell and miqo'te) and thin and I think that would work. Would lean toward flat faces.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2c/d9...85b45da8d2.jpg
Ancients, and variations off of the concept, feature in a bunch of final fantasy games. The Cetra was one notable example, but even easier--we have Allagans in FFXIV and no idea what they look like. They could be basically anything or some bizarro combination of features from various races or who knows what. They could look vaguely fetal even, implying they were the original humanoid race of Hydaelyn from which others evolved. Who knows. And if the Allagans themselves don't work, some remnant of them could work too. Just need a long lost civilization or a bunch of people in pods waking up and stumbling around.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20180424163422
Robots, or magitek robots, honestly could be addressed as either Allagan creations that have been waking up and wandering around with no one quite sure what they're about but needing to deal with them regardless, or they could be sentient escapees from Garlemald. I lean toward the first option because it addresses more cleanly why they don't appear in combat earlier, and there's room for their existence to be covered in a much later plot point. Quests with + added sometimes at varying levels can help address lore, and if the rewards are fun but not practically useful items like minions or level one glamours it would offer incentive without borking the leveling process. Aesthetic lore basically until it's brought in in-depth later. This would also allow a fair amount of versatility into weird facial features as well as dramatic variation between face options. The downside imo is frankly, what on earth is done with hair and earrings? Would something else need to be substituted for added customization if no hair options are present? Earrings are a bigger issue because they're gear. I think this could be done but would be a bit trickier.
https://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-...2-FF3_0986.png
Gnomes showed up in FFIII and by the sounds of it were smaller than Lalafells. I think this might be workable, they could just be an unbelievably secretive and reclusive race and if it's from fear/timidity it could contrast the warrior-Viera. I would lean away from previous designs for these personally and think it could be fun to make their ears positively MASSIVE while their faces and bodies go more ugly-cute to contrast Lalafells. -
02-08-2019, 03:12 AMShougun
Hehe I see you had fun learning about the good ol' edit the post to get past the character limit trick :p.
Yuke is just another example of puppet-like race in SE games, that was all. If people are not familar with them then I could understand why bringing them up was like "I dont get it" lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
Well if we used the majora mask setup, which lowers SE's pressure to deliver the lore and huge set of customization then.. none - what you get is what you get haha. You don the visage of a shadow and that's that. The mask system doesn't have to literally be masks either, it might be best if they're actually glamours you apply onto your wrists (a slot that doesn't use anything at the moment).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
However, I do believe they could make some race options and I would also suggest if they're adding a bunch of goof races because it's fun then they don't need to have each race have a huge array of options (if it doesn't make sense to have, like Void born Au Ra having a more normal section makes sense while Vivi like having less also makes sense). For example the vivi race would have scale, like in FFIX there were fat large ones and short lalafell ones, different eye shapes and perhaps colors, perhaps different hues of shadows, and also in the "lore" I came up with different undergarments. In this case the undergarments are more like bindings for the soul to stay in one spot, so they aren't really undergarments but very important shackles to reality lol. There is no pressure on this specific race for SE to add 500 different options, and because the shapes the model will use (like lalafell) I think it would be a relatively easy to implement race just for the fun of it.
I'd love new shapes, but I was thinking in terms of cost effective (keeping the shapes that armor fit on, emote animations, not super heavy lore). I did that mostly because you had in a sort of essence asked me to bring down the level of requests from "make some beastmen, big lion faces go!" to something more normal. I believe adding more subtypes is an easier outlet, at least given that SE doesn't have some sort of memory issues from doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
Yeah I think it cleanly kills any lore issue about playing something beastman looking, because you're not and the NPC know it too, but it also allows SE the ability to add beastmen options with limited lore and customization requirements (making them much easier to add). Like the wolf race could be added tomorrow, when you slap the glamour onto your wrist it'll cause your helmet to be hidden and you'll gain tail/fur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
I know there are some normal masks in the game, that are like parade/sport mascot masks, but those do not feel real (they're a mask that goes over your real face). The point of the majora system would be your face changes, becoming animated and alive in some part - like the Majora Mask. Like if people remember that old Jim Carrey movie (The Mask).
They're not from Dalamud though right? Just came down to see what's up after it fell- yeah? I think it would be a nice twist if they came down to "help out" with a bit of an air of arrogance and power, but when you look closely its with a high sense of urgency. They helped the Allagan set up the moon in agreement for some power from it, like a giant primal dyson sphere lol. Problem being now that it fell and their back up stores have finally ran out they are coming down to find a new power source (they didn't notice right away beacuse they became so used to a life of luxury, their technology grand and their power limitless). Looking for a source they perhaps find the state Minfilla in interesting enough for their new more portable sphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
I believe Garleans, the pure blooded ones like Cid or Nero, have some relation to the "ancients". Like the third eye. Except Garleans can't use magic if recall correctly. In such a scenario you might be able to add Garlean looking race to the character creator but they can still use magic. Perhaps to avoid you having memory of insane technologies and magics in lore we find a giant, giant, room full of clones - perhaps to reference FFIX called Genome (zidane and kuja are an example). Could even give them some features like Zidane and Kuja just for fun (soft faces, Kuja especially lol). Some of the Genome wake up and they have no memory of the world. Normally they would have been used to house a true Allagan mind, or perhaps were just made as dolls and toys for their fancy (in their imagE). Yet time has allowed stray energy to somehow spark them awake with their own soul-like aspect, rather than the system putting one calculated soul into it as was intended. The player can be one of those awakened clones of the ancients.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
Hmm, am a little worried about this one but if SE could come up with a good looking design then it's surely possible (like it could be great, but if not done carefully could just look way out of place lol). I also believe they could just use the sort of clone idea above though, and then maybe allow some sort of circuitry tattoos that have light animations on them as a special race option. Like if you remember Command Shepard from Mass Effect 3, when he goes bad you can see some of the underlying components - although lets not make it explicitly evil looking like it is in that game lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
If the shape stays similar to lalafell so that they can reuse the body structure I could see this being a side option. I think that's the main reason why I suggested a bunch of sub-types, if the structures are similar for armor and some emotes (doesn't have to have all the same emotes, but similar proportion means many can be reused) then SE can add more races without it being a huge giant pain in the booty. The FFXIV universe, and pretty much all FF, have a vast array of races so I don't really feel like there is a strong need to be stuck with just a handful (if they can be added reasonably like majora mask style, or via subtype reuse).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
If SE has heavy memory issues (where the code can't allow more than X) then I wish to have some more unique ones each time and they can work out the costs of adding them every so often in expansions but if it's possible to diversify without it costing them an arm and a leg then I think it's worth it. Or in other words I still like to see different shaped stuff, but I believe the route of subtypes and masks could offer SE some freedom. -
02-08-2019, 03:28 AMMorbolvampireQueen6
I just want ff9s quinna race and short versions of all our current races
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02-08-2019, 07:50 AMRoda
Honestly this game is wanting for a construct race, I'd love to see a mammet in-game. Maybe something in-between female au ra height and lalafell height. Of course I wouldn't mind a tall variant either.
The armor on them would probably take some doing tho if they wanted them to look really alien.