Idea regarding new and old jobs...

So first I would like to start by apologizing for any error in my writing, and saying that I totally have no idea is what I'm proposing is hard or complicated implement, only that the thought came to mind and I would like to see everyones opinions on it.

So as we move forward with new expansions I sort of see, from people's jobs predictions how it's sort of hard to create a brand new job that doesn't resemble or look like a previously implemented job. So the idea came to mind, I know the game scratched the class/job system after 2.0, but I feel like it would be cool to have more classes like summoner/scholar. Like for example make existing job have a alternative job that belong to a different role, but still share weapon, and some skills. Dark knight could become rune fencer as DPS, paladin could become cleric (healer) or mercenary (DPS), white mage could become Druid (Tank/DPs), warrior could become Beast Master. Bard could be turned into a healer and have ranger take the DPS role. And so on

Not only would this allow for similar jobs and a more options for the players, but it would also help out those that kind of want to level up every job, as of 4.5 we have 16 jobs (not counting land or hand) and to have all leveled up you need to work on 15 of them, with 2 more probably coming on 5.0. It wold be nice to have more of the jobs share the same exp pool.

True this could cause a guy that's never plaid a tank to suddenly have a end game level tank and not know what to do with it (like a bunch of summoners that think they can heal simply cause they have a scholar) but it would also encourage more people to try out new roles without the hasse of having to level up one from scratch.

The problem is that, as SMN/SCH proved, that doesn't really work and is more trouble than it's worth.

One problem we have with SCH/SMN is that they share the base class ACN actions often leaving SE little choice but to trait them at higher levels in an attempt to separate them further. SMN doesn't need Physick and SCH doesn't need Sustain, but that's something they are currently stuck with.

I see your idea in general I mean it's not bad, but it could be a balancing nightmare when it comes to duty content. As for exp, that gets dropped around like wildfire so it wouldn't take long to level anything, plus the player gets to learn the job along the way (although some players still don't know their job at max level, but that's a different story).

i would however like to see the Logos Action system in Eureka to be given some life in certain content (open world, unsynced duties etc?) I feel that's an underused system that was introduced too late and has more potential somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Lezca

Like for example make existing job have a alternative job that belong to a different role, but still share weapon, and some skills

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Technically, SMN and SCH do not share a weapon.

Yes, they both wield books, but they are completely unique books. They cannot equip/glamour books intended for the other job and they both have unique relics to obtain.

It's the same thing for BLM and WHM. Both use staves, but each use completely different ones.

As such, it's not as if there's a mechanical reasoning behind not allowing new classes to use similar weapon types to existing jobs, i.e. A new Axe using job or a new Fist weapon using job.

The restriction merely resides in how excited the playerbase would get over having a new job just use a weapon type we already have vs getting a brand new unique weapon. I mean, we already have slightly lowered reactions to Gunbreaker because some people think that the Gunblade is too similar to Paladin's sword.

As far as sharing skills goes, it's just not worthwhile. Given the fact that even with SMN/SCH what they ended up doing is heavily traiting all the skills to make them unique to each job anyway...

It's not as if we have a shortage of potential skill names either, that it would be required to double up on usage.

So really, there's the possibility of having new jobs use similar weapon types to ones we already have, but in a new role and likely with new animations to help differentiate them.

But having more jobs that share a base class, is not particularly likely, as it ends up being too much hassle as well has having a plethora of downsides for the meagre upside of aiding the players who level up all jobs level them all up faster (Though, that is also implying that the act of leveling up classes isn't fun for these people)

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

The problem is that, as SMN/SCH proved, that doesn't really work and is more trouble than it's worth.

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To be fair, a sample size of one with ridiculous implementation issues and a number more problematic design choices not directly caused by the two jobs sharing a initial base class hardly proves or disproves anything. SCH and SMN did not need to share EXP, yet were specifically designed to do so. As Stormblood now shows, they didn't even need to share skills verbatim (they can be retroactively changed from the shared Arcanist base, adapting or even trimming skills), yet did so for all of ARR and HW.

Doubling up on classes accomplishes three things:
- Allows casual players their choice of role within a single leveling process. (Doesn't necessarily have to be the case, especially if the jobs merely share a starting class, rather than being linked themselves.)
- Allows players their choice of role within their favorite aesthetic.
- Allows jobs which have similar fundamentals prior to their job elements (e.g. Ranger being very different from Bard in all things job related, but not in that they both shoot arrows and can kite) to be developed.

Yet the first is usually seen as problematic, the second can be achieved with greater overall efficiency for the playerbase by just creating further unique jobs to get to love, and the third is merely a common sense check that isn't really needed until we've ran out of other ideas.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

The problem is that, as SMN/SCH proved, that doesn't really work and is more trouble than it's worth.

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Hmm, works fine as far as I can see. Summoner and Scholar are both well liked jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Hmm, works fine as far as I can see. Summoner and Scholar are both well liked jobs.

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They are, but the system is a lot more clunky than it could be if they were both standalone. Neither is badly designed, but both would probably have been designed differently and more efficiently if they weren't connected.

Summoner feels like the natural progression of arcanist while scholar had to have almost it's entire healing kit built up through the job actions after the fact. It's why Succor is level 35, compared to level 10 for Medica and Helios. Why Esuna is now a role action (down from Leeches being level 40), etc. It works, but it's messy.

The reason they made Arcanist branch off is a bit of a mystery. Aside from the level 1 job and get 2, there wasn't much sense in it.
Don't get me wrong, i like the idea of being able to choose a role more or less, either heal or DPS, but there is a Steep downside to this. Since they are linked and if you only play 1 of the jobs. You won't know the other very well, and have it at the same level, which hits the same problem that bought accounts, or power leveled accounts have.

Its not as big of a problem in this game, as this game is a lot simpler to learn overall, but i have already seen my fair share of people who actually leveled the jobs, who don't know what they are doing, ex. A tank saying they wouldn't flash because the healer shouldn't get hate on the other mobs if the Blm wasn't AOEing them. Since the tank wasn't pulling hate, the whhealer wouldn't get hate from healing him... Which anyone who has even remotely looked at hate knows this is Not how it works.

I don't want a new wave of players who leveled one aspect of a shared job, to jump on the other and constantly wipe because they don't know the mechanics.

Honestly as much as it may be a hassle to level all of the jobs independently, that's how you learn them.

But then you also delve into which roles to merge on 1 job. And wasted abilities. Overall SE did a great job not making abilities and spells obsolete, with the exception of a few, so giving a tanking ability that ends up on a healer, or DPS is somewhat pointless, or a Cure potancy boost on a DPS. Yes they could save them for post 30/50 whenever the break is, but then the job is limited compared to its counterparts before then.

Best thing to do would be - to make it short, have written a much more detailed post of the concept in an other thread - to implement a Specialization System, which allows all Base Classes to switch to one of maximum 3 Job Specializations to be able to switch your Role.
Basically each Class should be able to be played either as DD, Tank or Healer, they all should provide for that one Specialization and those later added Classes, that have no Base Class, because SE was too lazy to make some for them from the begin on, get then attached to one of the existing Base Classes and become one of the Role Specialiation Jobs for that they have no Role Spec and as part of that some Classes get redesigned into different Roles, for example the Job Warrior getting turned into a DD Job, because the integrated Dark Knight becomes then the Marauder's new Tank Specialization Job then, to integrade the Dark Knight, which has yet no Base Class into the Marauder and Dk just becoms from Level 30 on an unlocked new Specializastion Path for the Maurauder that intensifies with the DK gameplay the Tanking Role, and if you want to turn your Maurauder into a specialized damage dealer rathern, than you become a Warrior.

The game even has already game content with palace and that tower dungeon crawlers, where it plays no role which class you play (pun intended)
I absolutely believe, it would be only good in teh long run for FF14, if all classes become able to switch through specializations their played roles, it definetely would make the whole game also much more interesting, if we woudl receive through this more build diversity and not every base class beign played being the same anymore, but players being able to decide, which role you want to play with your base class and the role just decides then over the skills you can use/learn to provide with each role a different gameplay experience with your base class you chose to play.

The devs specifically addressed this some years back if I recall correctly. They explained that they were not going to bind two jobs to the same class again (such as occured with SCH and SMN coming from arcanist). They went on to elaborate that they wanted to move away from the class system altogether, which we have seen with the jobs introduced in HW and SB.

Albeit a creative idea from the OP, I would not anticipate them to move in this direction and more than likely any new jobs will be jobs alone with no base classes.