For years, people have argued that an instant 20% mitigation is too overpowered when its available at any moment especially when WAR's tank stance, while oGCD, doesnt have its full benefits until they are healed at least up to the amount of HP Defiance gives them. This however has become a very outdated argument as tanks have all received more mitigation options, both internally and externally with things like pallisade, benison, feint etc.
All of the downsides from WAR's Defiance have been answered with Equilibrium (healing the WAR for a little over their new HP total from entering Defiance) as well as Unchained (negating the damage penalty inflicted by defiance). In a nutshell, Defiance is currently the only tank stance that is completely reasonable to use as a tool outside of progression since Unchained allows the WAR to use their tank stance as an actual cooldown with a slight DPS loss due to losing Deliverance's 5% buff and crit buff, as well as losing access to fell cleaves temporarily but instead gaining access to insane mitigation tool that is Inner beast. So with WAR having more or less an oGCD tank stance with little to no downside, why is it that PLD/DRK's tank stance haven't been made into an ability? I don't see any legitimate issue with a tank losing 20% damage for a few GCDs but gaining 20% mitigation for a time. Not only would this make PLD and DRK's tank stance so much more convenient to use for when you really need help on mitigation, but it also affects the play of both PLD and DRK as their playstyles alter slightly while being in tank stance. For PLD, you lose the auto attacks from sword oath and thus lose the 5 oath gauge per hit, but you also gain the option to generate 20 oath gauge per holy spirit if you wish to use holy spirit under shield oath. For DRK, you gain the ability to use Blood price and also benefit from the extra MP gained from using Syphon Strike while also retaining the high amount of damage from Bloodspiller under Grit.
What do you guys think? Is an oGCD Shield oath/Grit too much, or do you also feel like it's time to have these skills become Abilities?
EDIT: For an oGCD Shield oath/Sword oath/Grit, I suggest there to be a recast timer when toggling these stances on or off, similar to Defiance/ Deliverance. This way the stances wouldn't be something you apply on and off with no timer involved.
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03-13-2018, 05:22 AMSaenoIt's about time Shield oath and Grit become Abilities instead of Spells. (off-GCD)
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03-13-2018, 05:26 AMFerth
I will wait on my opinion of Grit to see what, if anything, changes for DRK in the near future. But as a paladin, I'd either like to see oathswaps in the off-gcd, or have the last round of nerfs for paladin removed.
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03-13-2018, 05:37 AMSaenoAs a PLD main, I think It's completely reasonable for PLD to do less damage than the other two tanks just because of the raw utility a PLD brings. Despite how strong PLD is, I really dont see how oGCD stances could break PLD. They would still lose Sword oath's effects entirely until they re-enter it, and even then most PLD's will never enter tank stance as it is when things go south. However, oGCD stances would really help for when things go south like the WAR dying to an auto attack crit and you need to pick up the boss but no aggro tools are available to you immediately. Its those scenario's that I really wish my stances would be oGCD so I dont have to lose a GCD and then perform the enmity combo just to ensure a DPS doesn't die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferth
Of course, these scenarios dont (or least least shouldnt) happen often. At this point, oGCD Shield oath, sword oath and Grit would be more of a Quality of life change than something that would break tank balance. -
03-13-2018, 05:58 AMshao32
More that make ir ogcd i remove the MP cost so grit and shield Will be not a Direct dps loss and can be used as agro skills for adds or agro resets without hurting us the es way is doing now.
in ARR and heavensward for PLD was not a Big dealt but now MP is a Big part of they damage is a bit hars.
for DRK It was always a pain that exagerated cost of grit, It need to be removed. -
03-13-2018, 06:11 AMSaenoWhile I agree that the MP cost of Grit should be reconsidered, one thing to note is, under Grit, Syphon Strike would generate more MP for you and after two Syphon strikes, you'll have made up more than the MP sunk from Grit. I think an oGCD stance for all tanks would benefit DRK the most due to how they have access to unique things in Grit. They still lose potency from the next few attacks (aside from bloodspiller and arguably Syphon strike when counting the MP as potency) but it would be a very fun, engaging and helpful change to DRK, which are all things DRK could use right now!Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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03-13-2018, 07:11 AMshao32the thing is soul eater combo will never be used on grit, grit is only for the agro combo and then you drop it, plus you loose the mp from blood weapon with is much worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
it will be more benefic dont have mp cost at the end bcs the GCD is not really as bad, in combats where you face adds on it most of the time you go to the position you use that moment to activated so is not a loss in the end, i see it more usefull bcs on optimal gameplay you will never recover that MP properly. -
03-13-2018, 07:20 AMSaenoIf aggro is the concern, you would be generating aggro 2.7x more aggro under Grit passively. I do think you would still consider using at least Syphon strike under Grit for the bonus MP, and definitely Bloodspiller since it will do 650 potency and then 2.7x extra enmity due to Grit. For what it's worth, DRK also gains its only means of self healing under Grit with Soul eater, so there's some extra consideration there.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
As for blood weapon, optimally you would use Grit while blood weapon is unavailable so that you could benefit from Blood price in your Grit window. Ideally the restriction of Blood weapon/Price being unavailable due to your Stance should be abolished, but this thread is about Tank stances, that stuff can come later. -
03-13-2018, 07:49 AMshao32agro is not a problem, i always pull in grit, dealt a agro combo with dark arts and i have agro for all the combat with the aid of my OT, if you need more agro you use agro combo twice not souleater.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
you still are trading 1800 of mp on a kill and no matter what you do you will never get back those 1800 mp, grit syphon bonus is there to be equal blood weapon MP you get, you generate just a bit more of mp with grit so to recover the potency lost you will need use syphon on grit several times and that is bigger waste. -
03-13-2018, 08:10 AMSaenoThe benefits of an oGCD Grit isnt the DPS you lose, its moreso about having the flexibility to mitigate damage and increase aggro drastically at a price to your damage, which is fair. While you already can do this normally with the current Grit, you still lose a GCD in doing so, which makes you lose out on a lot more damage than just the MP lost from Grit alone. Also, as mentioned earlier, there are moments where you need the mitigation/aggro immediately and in those moments, the wait for your GCD to reset is just too much, and this causes frustration when you need to rely on your tank stance but need to wait for the GCD to reset, then activate tank stance, and then finally perform an action. You would also be able to substitute the GCD you lost from activating Grit with a weaponskill, and that in turn allows you to get more Syphon strikes. Its fine to lose some DPS if it means you have the immediate effect of Grit, since you're trading damage for mitigation/enmity. I think removing the MP cost of Grit altogether is fair too, but I think Grit and Shield oath need to be oGCD at this point regardless of their MP costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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03-13-2018, 08:48 AMNedkel
There is no sense DRK or PLD have their stances, it should be deleted away.
Warrior defiance and deliverance makes sense, but tank stances in other tanks doesnt, why do we even need this for them?