Please stop with the "no duplicates" and pigeon-holing our DPS into tiny windows

This is getting to be a really disturbing trend that I think the developers don't really see, because they're so far buried in the minutiae of balancing jobs and creating new content.

But it is something that has bothered me for awhile and it's only getting worse.

1) The "no duplicates" job nonsense

You get a marginally faster limit break bar fill if each class is unique. While I understand this was designed to encourage greater class variety, it's also causing a lot of exclusion of popular classes. It discourages people from playing the class they are most proficient at or simply enjoy playing the most. It is becoming endemic in the party finder.

Yes, pre-made groups don't have this but overall I think it discourages the social/collaboration part of the MMO outside of one's own FC or friends list.

2) Pigeon-holing our DPS into tiny windows

This is getting borderline ridiculous on some classes - machinist and warrior in particular but I'm sure there are others. Please look at other ways to make each class powerful in its own right rather than "let's make sure eeeeverything lines up within a millisecond in order to do the most DPS we can within 3 seconds!"

Does anyone here feel like that's fun? Challenging, for sure, but not fun.

By the same token, machinist and monk I feel are far too rigid in their DPS demands. Monk just seems like way too much concentration goes into timing everything precisely so that you end up with "squeeze all your DPS into this tiny window but only from this angle!

I feel like they really need to go back to the drawing board on those two classes.
Your thoughts?

"No duplicates" is the only reason we aren't raiding with "7 Tanks and 1 Healer." I think exclusion of popular classes would be FAR greater if duplicates were allowed. I know for a fact my PLD would have never finished AS3 and AS4 if "Warrior ONLY" comps were allowed.

1:- I agree with this. namely because the developers repeatedly proclaim a play whatever job you want and everything is perfectly balanced game environment.

If that's the case then it really shouldn't matter at all if for example 3 of your dps want to be monks or both your tanks want to be warriors.. players should be allowed to play whatever they want without penalties... which is what the devs often proclaim.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

While I understand this was designed to encourage greater class variety, it's also causing a lot of exclusion of popular classes.

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How is it causing a lot of exclusion of popular classes? No duplicate jobs really only means no DUPLICATE jobs. Unless you're mistaking it for those PFs that doesn't allow certain classes to enter (plenty of SAM threads about it), the issue is not with "no duplicates job" nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

It discourages people from playing the class they are most proficient at or simply enjoy playing the most.

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Either look for another PF or start your own. It's been this way ever since the LB update.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

2) Pigeon-holing our DPS into tiny windows

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This is not a new thing. Classes have burst windows ever since ARR with the exception of Paladins and healers (except WHM).

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

machinist and monk I feel are far too rigid in their DPS demands.

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So are other DPS classes. Can't have it too easy where you can just smash buttons and do amazing DPS.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Monk just seems like way too much concentration goes into timing everything precisely so that you end up with "squeeze all your DPS into this tiny window but only from this angle!

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Again, every class have burst windows.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I feel like they really need to go back to the drawing board on those two classes.

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Yes but for a different reason.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

You get a marginally faster limit break bar fill if each class is unique.

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Actually, you get a noticeably faster limit break. I ran in a Byakko EX party with double SAM and we weren't even close to LB3 at the point where you'd normally have it. In O7S, you'll flat out lose a second LB2, assuming you melee LB The Guardian. Can Byakko be done normally? Sure. But why? There's no benefit to the group and only a hindrance.

If you want to do stuff with your FC, go ahead. Party Finder is intended for random people, thus the PF leader determines how they want to do things. If you dislike it, make a party yourself.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

I think exclusion of popular classes would be FAR greater if duplicates were allowed.

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It would - The duplicate penalty serves as a buffer for imbalances. In order for stacking jobs to be worthwhile, the benefit of stacking (i.e. job imbalance) needs to compensate for and outweigh the penalty for it. The greater the penalty, the greater the imbalance needs to be for stacking to be ideal. Likewise, the smaller it is, the lower the imbalance needs to be for stacking to be ideal.

At least in pugs, removing it might become a pwetty big issue.

Having duplicate jobs is a significant decrease to LB charge rate. If anything, that penalty helps to promote class diversity within a group. Now if you’re being left out because your job of choice is not meta or whatever...that’s different. Best solution to that is to form your own group.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

"No duplicates" is the only reason we aren't raiding with "7 Tanks and 1 Healer." I think exclusion of popular classes would be FAR greater if duplicates were allowed. I know for a fact my PLD would have never finished AS3 and AS4 if "Warrior ONLY" comps were allowed.

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Removing or -- a much more likely change -- mitigating the penalty for duplicate classes wouldn't need to also stand without a replacing penalty for an excess of role. It could simply be another mode of mild lenience for content short of the most difficult currently available. Once you have 2 melee DPS, duplicates within a 3rd or 4th melee DPS hurt; once you have 2 tanks, duplicates hurt; etc., etc.

Maybe the first duplication doesn't hurt LB gains. Maybe the penalty is reduced on the first, by less on the second, and felt fully by the third. Whatever. But if a fight makes such a LB-dependent strat so useful, it would really help if players could play what they want or have when at least filling out all the appropriate roles (melee, ranged, healer, tank), either by not having such a severe penalty, or by ensuring that even if penalized to a point, the LB generation is still sufficient.

I'd rather see the penalty stay as is for Savage, but I wouldn't mind seeing it reduced to half at most for content less than that. Ofc, it would also help if in such content LB gauge was built more by damage dealt and less by time spent so that no group would also be fighting against "overclocking" a given phase requiring an LB3 (or for which the LB3 is optimal to the point of being nearly required).

I'm on board with a few others here: I feel like getting rid of "No Duplicates" and the bonus it gives to filling the LB meter would open the door to much more exclusion, a la the "7 WAR and 1 healer" comp. I don't mean to say that if your group wants both of it's tanks to be WAR and have dupes on a DPS, then that should be the end of the world, but I think the issue would lie in parties with 7 of the same class becoming the ideal comp, which the limit break rate being fueled by party diversity discourages.

The LB penalty for doubling up on the same jobs is far more than marginal, considering even one double job in Byakko Ex means you won't have tank LB3 for the second tiger (and people don't want to do the mechanic properly so, there's that). Tank LB2 isn't enough even when the tiger is at 50%. In Savage weeklies, people don't allow doubling up on DPS roles to avoid competition for loot--e.g., they say BRD or MCH, instead of allowing both, because they have to compete for gear. PF is made with the intention that party leaders can set whatever preferences they want for their party. You can't punish a person for saying "I don't want to double up on jobs, because we will get LBs faster" or "I don't want to allow multiple casters because they will all be fighting over caster pieces if they drop, and we're in a lockout right now". If you don't like the rules set by the PF leaders, make your own with no such rules.