4.05 - Tenacity Vs Non-Tenacity Builds

Tenacity Build: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWT

Non Tenacity Build: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWO

Trade off is ~1.5% DPS for 8% Mitigation/selfheals

For PLD, I'd go with the Non-Tenacity build as they already have higher passive mitigation from block, and that build has a lot of SkS which is good for sword oath and Goring Blade Dot.

Also, Tenacity affects our selfheal which mean clemency for PLD, and that's not part of their rotation unlike WAR/DRK.

I'm going Tenacity personally :-)

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Trade off is ~1.5% DPS for 8% Mitigation/selfheals

For PLD, I'd go with the Non-Tenacity build as they already have higher passive mitigation from block, and that build has a lot of SkS which is good for sword oath and Goring Blade Dot.

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I get the way the game works and all but as a tank, even on paladin that's a tough trade off for me to make. Dropping basically permanent reprisal for a tiny, tiny dps increase is hard to settle on. That said you can't really go wrong either way.

The real thoughts behing tenacity is : right now, is it really necessary to have this extra mitigation ?
Once you'll have the 340 set, even O4S should hit less harder.

The next hard content waited is the Super Savage.
So, in others words... the only reason to have a full 340 tenacity set would be that Super Savage will hit so hard that you definitly need it to survive.
Otherwise, it'll be better to increase the values of the dps.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

The real thoughts behing tenacity is : right now, is it really necessary to have this extra mitigation ?
Once you'll have the 340 set, even O4S should hit less harder.

The next hard content waited is the Super Savage.
So, in others words... the only reason to have a full 340 tenacity set would be that Super Savage will hit so hard that you definitly need it to survive.
Otherwise, it'll be better to increase the values of the dps.

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It depends on how high the mitigation gets vs the DPS loss. At some point, the personal DPS loss is made up for via healer DPS from mitigation over an encounter. Tank stances don't do this, but Tenacity MIGHT, it looks like. I'm eager to see where the numbers fall with higher ilvl.

Well if you're gonna look at it that way, I don't think melds will ever be required to complete anything. They're only there as a quality of life so that can make minor tweaks to your character in certain directions. For example, skill speed is seen as being useless, but it's still there for those who might want a 0.2s faster recast over a small increase in critical hit rate.

So any tenacity we'll need will probably be part of our gear anyway. Getting more via melds will be a matter of preference rather than a necessity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

The real thoughts behing tenacity is : right now, is it really necessary to have this extra mitigation ?
Once you'll have the 340 set, even O4S should hit less harder.

The next hard content waited is the Super Savage.
So, in others words... the only reason to have a full 340 tenacity set would be that Super Savage will hit so hard that you definitly need it to survive.
Otherwise, it'll be better to increase the values of the dps.

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Well it's the utility vs DPS trade off.
The extra mitigation isn't required to clear content but can potentially result if little little bit more mp management from healers or healer dps.

Is both case, I'd say it's negligible and more of a personal choice.
Right or wrong, I like to think that I should be more tanky if it's at the cost of marginal dps.
Also my healers have been pressuring me to go Tenacity :)

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

It depends on how high the mitigation gets vs the DPS loss. At some point, the personal DPS loss is made up for via healer DPS from mitigation over an encounter. Tank stances don't do this, but Tenacity MIGHT, it looks like. I'm eager to see where the numbers fall with higher ilvl.

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Tank have 100% dps uptime on the boss.
Healers don't.
Considerint healers' dps is now "lower" than before (no more cleric with the 10%), I think it should be better for tanks to have this dps increase.
But then again, you have to see first how hard bosses are hitting. Mitigation is one of the strongest thing in this game. Cause thanks to it, you survive. But if you can naturally survive without effort without too much mitigation, then than means it isn't needeed that much.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Well it's the utility vs DPS trade off.
The extra mitigation isn't required to clear content but can potentially result if little little bit more mp management from healers or healer dps.

Is both case, I'd say it's negligible and more of a personal choice.
Right or wrong, I like to think that I should be more tanky if it's at the cost of marginal dps.
Also my healers have been pressuring me to go Tenacity :)

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It depends on the group and the content you're running for.
It's the same for piety for healers. Let's say you're going to a weekly savage clear with your static. The run should be smooth, everyone now what to do and both healers have planned what to heal, you should then need less piety.
However with pugs on df or pf, you never know what happen, you don't know your co-healer, your tank, how's the dps will be... so you might want to have extra piety to be able to raise more if necessary (or heal more).

I think the reasonning behind Tenacity could be the same (somehow).

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Tank have 100% dps uptime on the boss.
Healers don't.
Considerint healers' dps is now "lower" than before (no more cleric with the 10%), I think it should be better for tanks to have this dps increase.
But then again, you have to see first how hard bosses are hitting. Mitigation is one of the strongest thing in this game. Cause thanks to it, you survive. But if you can naturally survive without effort without too much mitigation, then than means it isn't needeed that much.

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The main point is that we're talking about a ludicrously small dps gain. Basically you're trading half a tank stance for an almost unmeasurable dps gain. I do think there comes a point where we're a tad bit too obsessed with dps.

This isn't a obsession with dps, this is just trying to see it from an optimal point of view.
No news when I say, the more dps you have, the less time the encounter will be.

When you talk about mitigation, you have to see the content you're doing and if it's necessary to have.
If you're not taking a huge amount of damage/mitigation isn't that much required)/ healers doesn't have to heal that much (and so on), then you'll somehow just throw theses ressources in dps.

We could take example. Let's say you are doing lvl 70 dungeons with large pulls.
In that case, Tenacity could be really good cause in there, the tank has to mitigate the damage as much as possible.

Let's take an Extreme primal but being overgeared.
Even tank buster shouldn't deal that much damage, then tenacity shouldn't be a thing.

Not saying "dps rules", just "see when and where tenacity could actually be a good choice".
Just like my previous post on piety for healers.