Has the problem with WHM in raids fixed in SB?

So, I know SCH is a hot topic right now, and everyone is saying WHM is great currently.

But I can't help but think. What's so different about 3.0 WHM and 4.0 WHM? We have better MP management. And we have slightly higher DPS.
Is this really enough to keep us raid relevant?
In 3.0, we were practically kicked out of raids for AST buffs and SCH being too good to exclude and the fact that we had no unique utility or raid synergy.
We still have none of that now.

Currently, SCH is in a tight spot, so it gives WHM time to shine. But what's going to happen after they're inevitably buffed? It's going to simply roll back into the 3.0 problem of WHM being excluded because of no utility.

Either WHM needs to go the way of SAM, which is extremely high personal DPS/healing potency. Or it needs utility to compete with the others.

I posted this elsewhere but... it's enough until SCH is buffed back up again. As nice as the MP buffs are... in the end, you could delete MP from WHM and make every single spell and ability free, and it won't change the core issue.

Once SCH is buffed back up again, we're back to square one. "Everyone else can do what you can do, and you have no utility."

Wait, people excluded WHMs? On what servers? Almost very farm party and progression group I saw in HW always had a WHM and in most cases a SCH, simply because WHM provided such huge heals that the utility loss was made up for by raw heals.

I don't know where this fear of being thrown out because of "meta" is coming from

Been playing since forever but I don't think I've ever been excluded from a group/raid due to my class.

Only time it's an issue is if obviously the other healer is the same class as me.

I'm all for enhancing our job granted, but are people really being denied flat out for being any particular job?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Wait, people excluded WHMs? On what servers? Almost very farm party and progression group I saw in HW always had a WHM and in most cases a SCH, simply because WHM provided such huge heals that the utility loss was made up for by raw heals.

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3.4 onwards was a SCH+AST meta, so, yeah. Some parties were OK with off meta, plenty weren't. Aether Datacenter in my case.

The bolded was a flawed argument back then because AST heals were just as big, and now they're even bigger. Yes yes Cure 3 and all that, but that's one situation spell that wasn't particular great for the last tier with all of its spread mechanics.

Keep in mind that, theorycrafting on potencies and such aside, a lot of people care about their FFLogs rankings and will want AST just for that. (Even my own static bugs me to get on AST any time someone outranks them there...)

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I'm all for enhancing our job granted, but are people really being denied flat out for being any particular job?

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Take a look at static recruitment PFs sometime. Granted, it's not only healers that are subject to this, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't care either.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

3.4 onwards was a SCH+AST meta, so, yeah. Some parties were OK with off meta, plenty weren't. Aether Datacenter in my case.

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That explains it. I rarely saw that in the Primal Datacenter from PF groups, though at least not from any that needed healers. Saw plenty of all possible healer comps throughout 3.4 to SB's launch.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

That explains it. I rarely saw that in the Primal Datacenter from PF groups, though at least not from any that needed healers. Saw plenty of all possible healer comps throughout 3.4 to SB's launch.

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Aether gets dragged down towards this ridiculous meta adherence by Gilgamesh, generally.

The current kit WHM offers a high level of healing sustainability that gives groups more survival and "oops" correction. For pick up progression groups this will allow them to see mechanics further. For PuG clear / farm groups, this will allow them to have a safety factor to account for differing play styles and adapting to strategies they may not normally employ with statics or other PuG groups.

The flaw of AST (and I'm going to say specifically AST) was that is was so overbuffed that it overshadowed everything WHM could do. They could heal better - they had better MP management - they had better utility.

Now in 4.X WHM has better healing through oGCD and MP management through Assize / Thin Air / Lucid Dreaming where as AST has better raw output and Utility.

Not everyone on the planet is going to be able to play flawlessly. Player make mistakes. We're all not going to play at the same calibur that world first and speed run kill groups will be able to. Anyone trying to adhere to that meta without the ability to play at that skill level will eventually fall and then the AST/SCH will have a harder time to pick up the pieces than WHM/AST. Not to say its impossible but it's up to the individual groups to decide if they want to run that risk or not.

Again, there is enough differences between WHM and AST now that you can pick a playstyle that's suitable for you. You didn't have that option before in 3.4. Even if WHM isn't meta, their pick rate will certainly be higher than it was in the 3.4 raid tier. If a Meta Shepple decides to lock out certain jobs due to "Meta" they probably lack the common sense to understand why it's meta and you don't want to be part of those groups.

Has anyone actually run the potency calculations and determined the absolute strength and weaknesses of each kit from a healing perspective? What they have and don't have available? Has anyone actually seen the HoT/oGCD healing WHM provides through their kit right now? It's immense.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Has anyone actually run the potency calculations and determined the absolute strength and weaknesses of each kit from a healing perspective? What they have and don't have available? Has anyone actually seen the HoT/oGCD healing WHM provides through their kit right now? It's immense.

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There have been such posts on reddit. While you're right to point out WHM has more oGCDs, SB shored up AST here considerably (which also helps out AST's MP management).

One such high end raider/competing for world firsts-type did note that he thought AST+WHM would be the composition for progression groups preferring stability. (I can probably dig up the post if you're interested, though it's less focused on potencies/the numbers).

However... that kind of hinges on SCH staying where it is. SCH's healing output gets buffed, well...

AST is still a problem anyways. Some think SCH might have a place in certain types of parties. You'll notice that no one anywhere is suggesting that AST won't have a guaranteed slot.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

There have been such posts on reddit. While you're right to point out WHM has more oGCDs, SB shored up AST here considerably (which also helps out AST's MP management).

One such high end raider/competing for world firsts-type did note that he thought AST+WHM would be the composition for progression groups preferring stability. (I can probably dig up the post if you're interested, though it's less focused on potencies/the numbers).

However... that kind of hinges on SCH staying where it is. SCH's healing output gets buffed, well...

AST is still a problem anyways. Some think SCH might have a place in certain types of parties. You'll notice that no one anywhere is suggesting that AST won't have a guaranteed slot.

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Are you talking about this post? If so, I found it an excellent read when he first posted it. I'm a huge fan of his insight xD