Have we moved to an age where taking hate as a dps = bad dps instead of bad tank?

So I've had multiple instances where I've seen dps getting told off for taking hate instead of the tank getting told off for losing hate.

I was in A12 as BLM and I was about to take hate off the DRK tanking without grit. So I said "put tank stance on pls". Then the party jumped on me saying "you use quelling strikes".

Then a similar thing happened when I was in a dungeon, a ninja took hate off the PLD (again who was in sword oath), and died, he complained at the tank to keep hate and got berated for not learning to use shadewalker.

So is this a thing now? Is it the dps's fault if the tank loses hate?

The point is valid if you could have used quelling strikes /shade walker to reduce your hate and for some reason didn't.

Which is something I know a lot of dps don't do. Because there seems to be a common belief that if they use quelling strikes /shade walker and end up 5th in the enmity list then people assume there dps is terrible and thus seems a lot of players never use them because being number 2 apparantly means "best dps".

The issue really is the game is also so heavily focused on dps that nothing else matters.
As a result If the tank has to go into tank stance because you wont use quelling / shade. "OMG dps loss...." this party is terrible.
If a ninja can just shadewalker the tank instead. or the blm uses quelling strikes then the tank can stay in dps and Woot! No DPS loss and everyone's happy

Well, there's a lot of case where I'm forced to use my elusive jump as a DRG when I shouldn't even need to do it.
If the tank is bad or unstuff (or anything else) and you have a spell that can help then you should use it.

A sad think actually is that ppl often butthurt when you try to highlight something they might be doing wrong while they should take it in a good way and at least try to improve.

Depending on class, the fault can lie with you. Quelling strikes, shade walker and smokescreen doesn't harm your DPS in any significant way so use them if needed. Dragoons elusive jump is different as using it disengages you and you might have needed it later on to quickly get back resulting in a significant DPS loss.

If the tank loses aggro even though Shade, SS or quelling was used the fault lies with them as their main job is to keep aggro and DPS is second.

Speaking from mostly the opposite perspective it does fall to the Tank to make sure they are keeping up on the enmity combo's, that being said there is a heavy stance within the tanking forums that you shouldn't be in tank stance if you can avoid it to do more DPS (at least as a warrior this seems to be the trend). As for your experience with the DRK there's no excuse for not using grit that I can think of. The stance doesn't cost anything to use and the dps stance consumes mana at a regular rate, so being out of Grit serves no purpose.

I think the bigger issue here might be communication between parties, I don't know if you're running with the same people every time or different groups at different times. If the latter than I'd say don't worry to much about it, it sounds like the Tank forgot to do something. If it's the same groups every time I'd say maybe try talking more with them about what you expect from them? Maybe that way instead of the party being concerned about lost dps you can all focus on how to improve it across the raid, after all Utility and helping your fellow party members has to count for something?

P.S. Not a full time raider, so take this for what you will.

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

So I've had multiple instances where I've seen dps getting told off for taking hate instead of the tank getting told off for losing hate.

I was in A12 as BLM and I was about to take hate off the DRK tanking without grit. So I said "put tank stance on pls". Then the party jumped on me saying "you use quelling strikes".

Then a similar thing happened when I was in a dungeon, a ninja took hate off the PLD (again who was in sword oath), and died, he complained at the tank to keep hate and got berated for not learning to use shadewalker.

So is this a thing now? Is it the dps's fault if the tank loses hate?

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You all want to finish dungeons as fast as possible so where is the issue to use skills like quelling strikes and shadewalker? If you take less hate because of these skills, the tank can do more dps and everyone is happy and no one lost dps.

If you refuse to use quelling strikes and the tank has to stay in tank stance and has to spam his hate combo its a huge loss in dps and probably even a waste of resources for the tank. And what do you get from that? You stay longer in there.

Everyone is always screaming that people should learn how to play their classes right but most of the people refuse to use their skills right. If you use your skills right, the tank can play right too. Its a win win situation.

Spartan beeing out of Grit has a huge purpose its called mana regeneration. Bloodweapon can only be used without grit and a drk uses a lot of mana unlike other tanks. A Warrior has no issue because he is using his hate combo anyway since it is the highest dps combo, even a PLD uses a part of his hate combo in his dps combo.

A good DPS knows how to use their aggro management tools, if you don't use Quelling Strikes or anything along those lines for whatever reason, its partly your fault. Naturally, bad tanks are also a factor, I appreciate taking off yer stance to do more damage, but you only do that if you are sure you can actually hold it (I see many who simply cannot)

Same goes for healers who over-heal like crazy and then get upset about getting one shot by Alex because they didn't use any aggro mitigation. Overall, when it comes to aggro, everyone's got a responsibility, except for MNK of course, because the highest single target DPS class has no need for aggro control!

Well, if you have the abilities available and you would get aggro without them, you should use them - that's what good DPS do. On that note: Good Ninjas also throw the occasional goad and good BLMs use Apocastasis where appropriate.

As such, yes, it's partly the DPS fault as well - they could have prevented getting aggro but didn't. Naturally, if your ability is on CD or you have none like Monk, there's not much you can do, so at that point you attain absolution from your part of the fault. At that point, if the tank doesn't pick up, all you can do is less DPS or rely on the healer to keep you alive. Shouldn't really be an issue however unless a fresh i210 tank has to deal with i265 DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Spartan beeing out of Grit has a huge purpose its called mana regeneration. Bloodweapon can only be used without grit and a drk uses a lot of mana unlike other tanks. A Warrior has no issue because he is using his hate combo anyway since it is the highest dps combo, even a PLD uses a part of his hate combo in his dps combo.

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Well aware of this but in my experience the blood price ability is also more than capable of recovering mana lost. Is it not so commonly used in lvl 60 dungeons?

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