I see a lot of the concerns about the state of the high-end game involving many different elements, but ultimately it seems the underlying concern is the actual rewards. Not just what the game gives, but what it provides outside of itself, such as the satisfaction of clearing content, the story, the e-peen, all that jazz.
As such, here's my thoughts on each level of player and how their rewards should be handled, from mid- and up, and touches on story, aesthetic, gear and difficulty.
The top-end: All content clearers
-At this point, gear - including weapons - is kind of secondary until the next big thing comes around, but should definitely still be a thing so they can gear up alts or get pieces they can swap around. So it's fine the way it is in that regard.
-Aesthetics are probably more important to them in a way. Proofs of clearing yes, but also things that will have personal value long after their gear has gone to the wayside.
-Story itself is probably quite tertiary, however I think there should be elements of the story that might not make themselves known to those who don't clear the top stuff. Perhaps have it be something minor, like a change in the victory dance sequence that appears in the background, or something happening as you're leaving, overhearing a conversation, etc., would go a long way to giving them something to talk excitedly about among themselves. And while it would be spoiled eventually to the public by those who like to talk about things, it would still act as a draw for people who aren't at this tier to move up to it so they can experience it themselves.
-Difficulty should be high overall, but perhaps should have some points that are slightly less so. ThorEX seems to fill that niche, but I think it also came a little late to the party for what it provides, and Bis/RavEX both were far too quickly outshone in their rewards despite also being an alright challenge.
The mid-high: All content attempters
-Gear is much more important to this tier than it is to the next tier up. This is what was done right with Savage Coil compared to normal Coil. However, moreso I think it should become common practice to reward gear to some extent even if you're not clearing. For example, if you go into the end-game raids and can get the boss down at least 25% in an attempt, you get a "Shredded Gordian Manifesto - Page X", which trades at a rate of 1/4th for a normal page, and if you get them down 50%, you get a "Torn Gordian Manifesto - Page X", which trades at a 1/2 rate for regular pages. This would at least provide them a method of working towards the next tier gear-wise and at least get some sense of achievement for trying their hardest, while also meaning you can spend more time practicing and not regret it because of missing out on time for tomestone gear and the like.
-Story and aesthetics are probably fine where they are in terms of what is provided to this tier right now, however of course I do believe there should be some care in refining it, and not to use secondary toss-away characters so that people don't care. I think there's no saving Alex in this regard, and will likely have to follow its flow as it is now, but seriously, no more Mary-Sue Touchyscars (which I assume is what all the Goblins call her). Have it be the people who are already underutilized in the story of the game instead of creating one to try and serve a purpose. Or otherwise at least introduce them before whatever great evil descends upon the land, so their story at least has some credibility. This is definitely what Coil did right in comparison.
-Difficulty is what they're encountering, but in that regard I think there should be something either between Savage and Ex fights, that perhaps acted in a way as a way of educating people about the more difficult mechanics. Perhaps not even as instanced fights either; If there were fairly difficult FATEs that had only the mechanics that were stripped out between difficulties and rewarded tomestones or some such, it would provide people a way of learning what mechanics lay ahead, and of proving themselves even if they have the bane of 'new player bonus'.
The mid: Daily players
-I think this is mostly done right in the game so far, and it's really only the things up from here that are really in a bind. However, that said there should be something to draw them into the next step up that also isn't capped, but also doesn't require you to form a static or hopes of getting into a good group until you're moving up to the next step. In this regard, Diadem is almost doing it right, and ThorEX... well, it seems like neat content, but I'm still waiting out on the Relic weapons to see if it's worth spending some serious time on it, or to just wait for it to be DFable. Because otherwise there's a lot of other titles I can be playing, and getting full enjoyment out of, story and all included, instead of just hoping I get a good beating stick.
-And in that regard, considering story, I think also not using the Minstrel as a gateway to these things and provide them some proper story elements, as with the top-end story argument above, will provide a greater sense of "This is something I must do", rather than "I want that shiny, kinda maybe". Were this a reality, if this bard was singing and conjuring up all these extremely hard fights... I'd probably just kill the bard! Problem solved! But otherwise, for the normal player, the approach taken in Alex normal is probably best even if the story itself isn't.
-Aesthetics are perfectly fine here. In fact, for the most part they're better than what is given from raid stuff, which I think should also be looked at further. People want to feel they're epic in epic gear, but when it can't compare to some craftables that anybody from L1 up with at least one L50 can glamour on to their stuff, it doesn't hold as much weight. I don't know if it should be toned down here or buffed up there or both, but it's still something that should be considered.
-Difficulty sorely lacks here. People need a way to challenge themselves that doesn't involve the challenges of statics and sitting in PF for hours. I wouldn't even know where to begin in this regard. Sliding difficulty scales for dungeons and the like when running with friends as opposed to being an all-DF party could be a start, and as above, difficult FATEs with high-end mechanics would be a relaxed way of getting something difficult out of the game.
What would make the optimal reward scale, from Clearers to the plain-ol' Daily player
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11-29-2015, 05:16 AMArashminWhat would make the optimal reward scale, from Clearers to the plain-ol' Daily player
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11-29-2015, 05:26 AMZojha
Well...in my days, the difference in reward was: -
No really. You got the exact same things regardless of whether you chose Very Easy or Infernal as difficulty. Or whether you set the difficulty bar to 1 or 100 in games with a slider. Later on (especially on Steam), you got a different achievement for clearing each difficulty, if at all. And that was it.
It's a concept that, for some odd reason, works for millions of single-player games. Modern titles as well. Yet in MMOs, it seems to be unfathomable. -
11-29-2015, 05:28 AMFeliAiko
Until Diadem happened, I had no major issues with the current gear setup. If you didn't raid, you could still be i210 but it wasn't the same as being Best in Slot, which you could only work towards from being able to clear the hardest content in the first place. So there's still a distinction made.
I think raid weapon should've been i215 though. -
11-29-2015, 05:30 AMzosia
I think if this game wishes to stand by vertical progression, it really needs to adopt the wow model for reward schedules.In wow raiding. The highest tier of raiding provides the best gear and rewards. Then, there is other difficulties of the same raid that reward lower ilvl gear while maintaining a sense of accomplishment for both the midcore and hardcore raiding population.
Then there is lfr and flex mode that still rewards gear, but the ilvl of the gear rewarded is lower than the rewards from the harder modes of raiding. In short, the harder the content you play, the better your gear progression is. However, there is still a sense of progression for every type of play style.
Lets use a mock ilvl of 200 as the basline every player starts at.
In a wow pretend tier (lets use cata as an example):
Heroic raiders get ilvl 215 gear
Normal raiders get ilvl 210 gear
LFR/Non-raiders get ilvl 205 gear.
Once a new raid tier comes out, all the new dungeons can drop a baseline of 215 gear to reset the score board and give players who fell behind a shot at catching up.
In this game we have:
Savage raiders get ilvl 210
Normal raiders get ilvl 210
Non-raiders get ilvl 210
Diadem farmers get BiS ilvl 210
and the next raid tier is not even out. The reset button for the scoreboard was hit way too early. There is no need to catch up now when there is no content to catch up for. I can see SE making catch up mechanics in 3.2, but right now alex savage is still the raiding tier we have and there was no need to proliferate the game with easy access gear ruining the reward schedule. -
11-29-2015, 05:46 AMBranniganI really like the current weapon setup (dip available from last boss and a weapon drop as well, so 2 weapons per week), but it only works as long as you can't get dip outside of A4S. Relic would have to be like 205 also or require something difficult to finish it (lol, not gonna happen)Quote:
Originally Posted by FeliAiko
This is an odd comparison. Alexander Savage is not a more difficult version of The Diadem, it's completely different content that happens to be extremely more difficult but rewards worse gear for some reason. Defeating Bahamut in FF8 gives better rewards than defeating Ifrit because one is much harder than the other. Going out and murdering some random wolf or bandit in an open world game doesn't usually give better rewards than killing a dragon.Quote:
Well...in my days, the difference in reward was: -
No really. You got the exact same things regardless of whether you chose Very Easy or Infernal as difficulty. Or whether you set the difficulty bar to 1 or 100 in games with a slider. Later on (especially on Steam), you got a different achievement for clearing each difficulty, if at all. And that was it.
It's a concept that, for some odd reason, works for millions of single-player games. Modern titles as well. Yet in MMOs, it seems to be unfathomable.
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11-29-2015, 06:03 AMFeliAikoThere's a good chance they will add the Gobdip to VA in 3.15, since Yoshi has said they are contemplating whether to do it or not. Additionally I could see the Relic also being i210 on release, to entice people into doing it like they did with Diadem and its gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
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11-29-2015, 06:12 AMZojhaIs it, though? We weren't talking about the Diadem or Alex Savage in particular, we already have a thread for just that. We are talking about how, in general, difficulty should be rewarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
And let's not kid ourselves into thinking people wouldn't complain just as much if Alex Normal dropped the same loot as Alex Savage as they do right now about the Diadem, even though in that case the comparison would be 100% fitting. I'd wager people would actually complain even more about that than the current state of affairs. -
11-29-2015, 07:00 AMArashminEr, I don't think that was... ever the case? Unless you're talking about games that just have linear gear and just more difficulty modes, like old-school or even more recent single player JRPGs, although that's not even a hard/fast rule as a handful had aspects or additional unlocks, especially as you moved up into the PS2 and more modern systems. But even the earliest of MMOs like Diablo had better gear as you progressed up in difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha