Using existing crafting I will show how the markets don't work. Particularly the inter-dependencies squenix was hoping for (and maybe illustrate why the crafting system needed simplification).
Example:
I am a BSM only. I want to make a new bronze hammer for myself and maybe some other new BSMs. I can make the nuggets and the hammer head myself, but I can't make cotton cloth or the walnut hammer grip.
So I go to the uh'dal wards and I can get the cotton for cheap enough but as it turns out, no one is selling the hammer grips I need. So I try to put in a WTB order with my retainer. Turns out if I want to buy a hammer grip, I need one first.
/facepalm
So after much begging and pleading, I finally get someone to make me my first hammer grip so at least I can put in a proper order for my retainer. And I do so. And it only lets me ask for one hammer grip at a time... because I only have one.
/double facepalm (retainer facepalms as well)
So, I put my one item up for sale hoping someone would sell me one so I can have two. And then I just realize something. Item search only works for things people are selling. It doesn't work for buy orders. And I put my retainer in a crowded spot. So for him to buy something, first someone has to find him in the crowd. Then he is going to have to browse the retainer's inventory. And that someone then has to have the ability, items, and desire to make the hammer grip. Plus I have to be offering the right amount because since no one is selling them and I'm not a carpenter, I really don't know how much they are worth or what a fair price is.
So if all that works out (retainer being randomly found in a crowd, by someone who will make the item) I've got to go through that process 3-4 more times because I can only buy as many grips as I have in my inventory.
And that's only a simple, early level item.
/triple facepalm (my path companion is now facepalming)
At this point two weeks have gone by, no one has sold me any new hammer grips, and I say "screw crafting, I'm going to fight stuff" never looking back.
-
08-20-2011, 03:34 AMWinterclawA simple example of why the current market wards will not work for what SE intended
-
08-20-2011, 04:40 AMBlaiseLallaise
Great example. I believe you hit the nail on the head. I have always been an advocate (albeit silent) for enhancements that would alleviate the problems in your example. I would suggest the following adjustments to the Market Wards for SE to consider.
1.) Allow us to seek to purchase any trade-able item at any quantity, regardless of the existence of said item in our inventory.
2.) Add WTB (and possibly seeking repairs) to the search function, perhaps in separate search menus, or with the added ability to sort search results by transaction type (buy, sell, repair).
There are other obvious enhancements that could be made, but these should minimize the big issues outlined here. -
08-20-2011, 04:14 PMGoldeenQuote:
Item search only works for things people are selling. It doesn't work for buy orders.
That would be such a great option. It would be much easier to get what you need ;_;!!~Quote:
Add WTB (and possibly seeking repairs) to the search function, perhaps in separate search menus, or with the added ability to sort search results by transaction type (buy, sell, repair).
-
08-23-2011, 06:27 AMVesper
You definitely hit the nail on the head. I think the market system itself needs to just be scrapped. It was an interesting idea that was worth trying (I loved and supported it at first), but many things are just proving that its not worth keeping IMO.
Even on high end machines retainer lag is stupid. Having to wait for NPCs to spawn is irritating.
When PS3 launches there will be even more retainers up at all times, meaning wards will fill fast. Sure you can increase the amount of retainers in wards, but then you just increase retainer lag even more. Sure you can instance the wards with numbers, but now you make it a bit more irritating getting around.
Its time to just implement an auction house. Use retainers as storage and give them new purposes and features. But an AH is needed IMO at this point. There is no reason to continuously waste time and resources on trying to fix a system that is more than likely in the end going to be removed. Spend the resources elsewhere. -
08-23-2011, 06:32 AMRuriYea.... buying stuff in the wards using that method is completely useless. Better off shouting in Uldah for a bsm or arm or whatever to make you the parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterclaw
-
08-24-2011, 02:08 AMWinterclaw
Yeah, which is why we need something better than what we have (not AH per se as that has specific connotations). The crafting system requires heavy inter-dependencies however the markets fail to support those inter-dependencies. It seems the most common things in the wards are either the most basic materials or finished items. The specific parts which are only good for a few items are the ones that are a b---- to come by.
Something had to give and it looks like for now it's the in-depth crafting system. -
08-26-2011, 01:18 AMRoaran
I believe the interdependency of crafting finished items was SE's attempt to mimic the division of labor in the real world.
A pencil, for example, has multiple parts. It is innefficient for a single company to make all the various parts of the pencils, so, instead, the pencil company buys all the parts of the pencil from other companies, whose sole purpose is making those various parts. The pencil company then specializes in putting together the parts and producing the pencils themselves.
In FFXIV, the idea is, in order to make a piece of equipment, you need several items from other crafts, and each of those other classes would then supply those items through the market wards.
Now where it all breaks down is how there is no constant demand for those items, so there is no supply for those items. The occasional demand for a specific item will not encourage players to supply a ready amount of them. A single player, for example, might be able, in the span of a single day, craft enough of a specific ingredient to last months.
In the end, the limited bazaar space forces players to only put up for sale the items which will net them the best income. And almost anything would be better than supplying this type of item.
[Edit] Just to expand on this idea... where it would work... If the demand is there, for say a Super Haubergeon. And all the various parts are made from separate crafting classes, and even some battle classes. Let's say, for example, there are 5 ingredients, 1 from CRP, BSM, TAN, two that require a r40-50 battle class to acquire, and the final synthesis of the Super Haubergon is ARM. Now, consider two scenarios. One where a single player levels up CRP BSM TAN and farms the items themselves. Or a player who only levels up ARM and purchases all the various items in bulk and proceeds to craft multipe Super Haubergeons. The idea is, if each of the crafters for the ingredients focus on mass producing those ingredients, they will be able to operate at the highest effeciency. And a single player who focusses, each and every day, on farming those specific items, will learn the best way to farm them and bring them to market in the most effecient way. The price therefore, of these ingredients, from these extremely effecient players, will be several times lower than a player who does not know the best way to attain these items. If you sum the price in time, of the players specializing, and compare it to the single player who has to travel and gather mutliple items themselves, the obvious result is the more effecient players spending less time. And the final result being, the single ARM, being able to purchase cheaper quantities of these ingredients will then produce MORE at a lower cost and acquire gil much faster.
As I originally said though, if there's no demand for the final product, there's no interest in supplying the ingredients. Materia system looks like it will, to some unknown degree, address this issue.
Ideally, the game would be even more interdependent, and the demand would actually be there for those items.
************************
Also, as far as the market wards... honestly, I still think this is the best solution and I made it a long time ago feel free to bump it up:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-Market-Wards.