About Ninja Adjustment

hello. i don't feel they did this very at all. it may have SEEMED like a good compromise because the ninjutsu cost no resources. but this change to venom simply puts ninja AoE in the dirt.




i think there a few ideas here.

maybe make it so venom only applies like 5% without trait and 10% boost with the trait to ninjutsu.

OR

maybe make only one venom give a damage boost to ninjutsu. most likely not the 20% boost. but still could be 5~10%. and should still give the normal damage boost. or maybe reduce it to like 5~10% too as to keep a balance.

OR

increase Death Blossom potency by like 20 or 30.




i just wouldn't mind bringing back up the AoE damage, even by just a little.

I don't know what you're doing for aoe, but even after the nerf to the nin poisons, monk aoe is nowhere even close to nin. katon xx kassatsu, katon, death blossom spam trashmobs melt like snow in the sun.

Compared to Death Blossom, the damage from Katon and Doton is not that high and the nerf to that did barely anything for NIN AoE. If you're falling behind MNKs in AoE damage, you're not throwing enough knives.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

I don't know what you're doing for aoe, but even after the nerf to the nin poisons, monk aoe is nowhere even close to nin. katon xx kassatsu, katon, death blossom spam trashmobs melt like snow in the sun.

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Death Blossom is dirt weak. it has only 100 potency with the trait. and is only worth using with Huton up. you can anticipate the encounter to prepare Huton so you have the skill speed even after your 3second burst. but what you mention is only a very very short moment of burst damage. while it may not be as much damage as a DRG's or MNK's 20second bursting period it, it is more damage in the first 3 seconds of an encounter then either DRG or MNK can achieve. however, you also have to remember that Murda is not affected by skill speed. so there will always be a flat rate of time needed to execute this combo. and if you forget Blood for Blood... well that just sucks.

DRG has awesome 20second burst periods. Doom Spike + the 30% boost from Blood for Blood EASILY puts DRG's AoE burst period at the top. MNK has a good 10 second burst period, then 10 more seconds of bursting still with Blood for Blood. ( MNK only get 10% boost from this without the trait. ) but still MNK has to use one other action in-between. even with the Greased Lightning III, DRG is still better at burst damage. MNK can do good burst AoE, but is better at providing a consistent amount of damage over a longer period of time. however, they both still have a better bursting period then NIN.



your move combo suggestion is fine and all, but only if you expect the encounter to end quite quickly after that burst in damage. other wise you should save that Kassatsu for laying a Doton PLUS refreshing Huton. if you keep Huton up and Doton down, a NIN should be able to pull out roughly 160 potency every 3 seconds. without Huton and only using Doton + Death Blossom NIN goes down to a flat 130 Potency every 3 seconds. keep in mind that over the entire period of a Doton that is 240potency in total. Katon is 180 potency of instant damage.

i am sorry but even at 160 potency every 3 seconds, it still doesn't compare to either DRG or MNK. a DRG with Doom Spike alone is 160 potency roughly every 2.4 seconds. MNK can do 180potency roughly every 6 seconds. lemme translate the MNK damage here real quick. because while NIN can do 320potency every 6 seconds, our venom does nothing for ninjutsu. okay so on my MNK i was able to achieve around 550 damage every 6 seconds. and NIN did around 500 damage every 6 seconds. not a seemingly significant difference between sustained damage. however, MNK still has the better bursting period.



just some damage figures here...

DRG = 690 every 6seconds
MNK = 550 every 6seconds
NIN = 500 every 6seconds

lemme re-cap on something here. MNK can do 180potency of AoE damage roughly every 6 seconds. and NIN can achieve roughly 320 potency roughly every 6 second. DESPITE NIN's higher potency, MNK is still able to pull out in front. why? that nerf to the venom is the cause >_>

keep in mind these figures represent a sustained amount of damage meant to last over a longer period of time. these are not burst numbers. and the only buffs used were Heavy Thrust, Greased Lightning III and some venom on the NIN. ALSO they are geared almost exactly the same. DRG and MNK are at AIL106, NIN is AIL107, with IL110 weapons. and all slots have an item of at least IL100 or higher.


all-in-all i certainly don't feel NIN AoE should compare to a DRG. but at the very least it should compare to a MNK. both are attack speed based jobs.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Compared to Death Blossom, the damage from Katon and Doton is not that high and the nerf to that did barely anything for NIN AoE. If you're falling behind MNKs in AoE damage, you're not throwing enough knives.

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according to the findings above... before the nerf, NIN may very well have had higher sustained AoE damage then MNK. and again, both are attack speed based jobs. so even that shouldn't happen.






conclusion? aside from that 3second burst that was mentioned, NIN really doesn't have much going for it in terms of AoE. what can i suggest? i dunno... easiest thing i can think of is to slightly increase Death Blossom potency. 20 or 30 more potency shouldn't hurt. however, i don't know how potency directly translates into damage.

I don't want to question your math, i guess it's all correct and respect the time you put into it. I personally assume that a trashmob will barely live any longer than 10 seconds though, so the 3 second nin burst from katon xx kassatsu, katon (crit) is weighted pretty high. That's also the reason I didn't even mention doton for nin aoe, because it's a dps loss if mobs die fast. I also assume that i handle my ninjutsu cooldowns in a way that huton is up at all times, because that's what i do.

Out of interest, where do you take the monk 'burst' from? Do you mean pb + rock breaker spam x5?

Also a note to point out Doom spike is straight Line only not pure aoe, idk about you but most times mobs are clusterfucked around the tank not an easy straight line so most DRGS go for the Heavy Thrust Ring of thorns combo on trash.

Quit Nin, you're bringing shame to the job.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

I don't want to question your math, i guess it's all correct and respect the time you put into it. I personally assume that a trashmob will barely live any longer than 10 seconds though, so the 3 second nin burst from katon xx kassatsu, katon (crit) is weighted pretty high. That's also the reason I didn't even mention doton for nin aoe, because it's a dps loss if mobs die fast. I also assume that i handle my ninjutsu cooldowns in a way that huton is up at all times, because that's what i do.

Out of interest, where do you take the monk 'burst' from? Do you mean pb + rock breaker spam x5?

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i completely understand. but that is also situational. many large pulls, in my experiences, lasts for at least 30 seconds. however, since the lift on item-level sync i have seen some serious damage out there. have even seen a player literally one hit K.O. something before. probably a DRG finishing a Full Thrust combo with a critical. it was a melee player that much i remember.

and yeah Blood for Blood + Perfect Balance with already having Greased Lightning III allows MNK a rather nice period of burst AoE damage. and while Rock Breaker is only 130 potency, MNK attack speed is pretty good. i haven't done the testing, but i imagine during those first 10seconds a MNK should be close to DRG.

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Originally Posted by Raucent

Also a note to point out Doom spike is straight Line only not pure aoe, idk about you but most times mobs are clusterfucked around the tank not an easy straight line so most DRGS go for the Heavy Thrust Ring of thorns combo on trash.

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yeah. it can get difficult to use Doom Spike at times. i just always try to select the furthest enemy in a mob. it usually does well. and only rarely passes over like 1 or 2 enemies. but it is so worth using over that other combo during Blood for Blood. also Doom Spike is pretty good when you need to stand further away from the enemy, or escape an AoE.

also with Ring of Thorns you have a couple of options. you can either waste Blood for Blood time by trying to combo in to it with Heavy Thrust. and potentially waste even more time by not hitting your directional. or you can waste Blood for Blood entirely by spamming only Ring of Thorns without the combo. but i guess it could still be decent damage. to each their own.

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Quit Nin, you're bringing shame to the job.

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i am sorry if you didn't feel like reading through my previous wall of text. so i will just say this... the numbers don't lie.

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

the numbers don't lie.

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Like these?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Huton-Duration

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

i completely understand. but that is also situational. many large pulls, in my experiences, lasts for at least 30 seconds. however, since the lift on item-level sync i have seen some serious damage out there. have even seen a player literally one hit K.O. something before. probably a DRG finishing a Full Thrust combo with a critical. it was a melee player that much i remember.

and yeah Blood for Blood + Perfect Balance with already having Greased Lightning III allows MNK a rather nice period of burst AoE damage. and while Rock Breaker is only 130 potency, MNK attack speed is pretty good. i haven't done the testing, but i imagine during those first 10seconds a MNK should be close to DRG.

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What I'm about to say pertains only to monk, and not your issues with the ninja changes.

While PB Rock Breaker spam is nice for the duration you need to remember that PB is a 3 minute cooldown, and you won't be able to use it much at all in a dungeon. Also you're mentioning monk with GL3 doing PB+BfB Rock Breaker spam. It takes over 20 seconds to get GL3 up without PB to get there in the first place so holding PB until after you get GL3 usually will mean that a lot of trash on a big pull will be dead or close to dead already. Monk AoE is extremely weak because of setup time, and by the time you're ready to get that ideal Rock Breaker spam going with all your buffs up (IR+BfB+GL3) a lot of mobs will be low on health already from other classes that don't need that kind of setup time for their AoE. Monk AoE isn't very good at all outside using it with a 3 minute cooldown and totally wrecking our TP pool, and quite frankly that's fine given how good our single target damage is.