I normally don't indulge in ideas of this vein, but the discussion onunnecessaryadditional stats in gear got me thinking about alternate advancement.
To those of you familiar with FFXI's merit system, it was sort of like that but a lot more involved. To those of you who've never heard of it, you'd basically earn exp towards AA and enhance other aspects of a character beyond stat gains through levels and ability scaling. Some of it was minor stuff (increased the effect buff items like food and potions have on you) while some were pretty crazy (allowing a tank to go into negative HP before actually dying).
Of course, I wouldn't want something as grindtastic as a 1:1 copy of AA in FFXIV, but the approach they took as far as what characters received would hopefully appease the crowd complaining about gear design.
To start, FFXIV's version of AA would be centered on the jobs themselves rather than the classes. Depending on the job, you may have more options in some jobs while others would be very cut and dry. To prevent people from changing specs whenever they want (as that would cheapen the system while creating hastle to those that may want to full-time one spec), the cost for enhancing your character through this system would be 20 of the 30 stat allocation points you get by the time you hit lv50. So you have the option of putting the 30 points into stats or spending 20 of those points to use for AA.
Since I know PLD better than any of the other jobs in the game, I'll use that as a base.
PLD Specializations: Swordsmanship, Defense
Swordsmanship
Enhanced Riot Blade: Increases enmity generated by Riot Blade (x1.5 modifier)
Enhanced Spirits Within: Reduces the cooldown of Spirts Within to 24 seconds
Enhanced Circle of Scorn: Increases the duration of Circle of Scorn's damage over time effect to 21 seconds
Follow-up: Reduces the GCD after using Shield Swipe by 0.5 seconds
Defense
Reflective Bulwark: Bulwark will now reflect the next spell cast on you. If the spell is a damaging spell, spelldamage will be determined by your magic attack stat. Reflecting a spell will consume the Bulwark buff
Enhanced Cover: Cover will now also transfer magic damage taken by target to you
Enhanced Provoke: Provoke now forces the target to attack you for 6 seconds
Enhanced Shield Oath: Shield Oath now also increases healing done to other players by 10%
In application, a PLD would have to choose whether to spec into Swordsmanship or Defense, and then choose one (1) ability to enhance. For balance purposes and to minimize pigeonholing, the options would have to be as close to each other as possible in effectiveness. In the case of PLD, it's really a matter of what you want to do while not really making any of the enhancements required.
To analyze the choices:
- Enhancing Riot Blade is a bit of a wash since PLD doesn't really use Riot Blade to generate enmity. We use it to restore MP. The enmity modifier would be lower than what Shield Lob has (x2).
- Lowering Spirit Within's cooldown would be a small DPS gain and would only really be noticeable during a long fight. The benefit here being that we also get our silence back faster, though if your raid has a Bard this is also a bit of a wash.
- Enhancing Circle of Scorn is also a minor DPS increase if nothing else. Wouldn't really notice the increase unless you're dealing with a large pack of mobs, and even then you'd still get wrecked in the DPS "meters" by BLM, SMN and DRG,
- Follow-up is an example in a slight change in mechanics through this AA system. Basically you're able to get back to attacking faster after using Shield Swipe. Our normal GCD is 2.5 seconds. Assuming 0 skill speed, your GCD after using Shield Swipe would be 2 seconds. This would fall into the ability's concept, since the ability is supposed to be used to unbalance your opponent and quickly attack them to get the advantage. Again a bit of a wash unless you decide to use only small shields for the higher block rate.
- Enhanced Bulwark is a trade-off of sorts. You're giving up a minor defensive cooldown for a very situational spell reflect. Obviously most useful in PvP but would have its uses against caster mobs.
- Enhanced Cover is basically what I think Cover should have been all along. Since Cover itself is situational this isn't much of a gamechanger.
- Enhanced Provoke is also how I think Provoke should have been from the start (because Provoking a mob only to have someone else in the raid sneeze and steal aggro is annoying as hell). Again, not much of a gamechanger.
- Enhanced Shield Oath is a very minor boost to heals cast by the PLD. PLD is after all a tank so healing is not really in the job description, but bumping our 240 HP cures to 264 HP per cure may quell the people who can't understand why a tank should not have strong healing, specially when they have a lot of defensive cooldowns available to them.
I hope the idea for this system got across. I'm not too familiar with how the other jobs work nor what boosts they could get that would be minor additions to the job without creating a mandatory "spec", so I'll leave that for anyone that wants to post their own ideas as far as what they think their jobs should receive within this system.
As always, comments, flames, death threats and so on are welcome.
Pipe Dreams: A take on Alternate Advancement
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08-06-2014, 07:52 PMDuellePipe Dreams: A take on Alternate Advancement
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08-06-2014, 08:48 PMGardes
Ehhh. Most plds would probably be shoehorned into taking enhanced bulwark to reflect a death sentence tier magic attacks by raid bosses, even if the cool down is pretty long (if the effect is exactly like what I think it is). Most paladins would probably end up rejecting enhanced provoke because there would be people with the pretense of being 'pro' and therefore claiming to not need the 6 seconds leeway the trait gives and in effect encourage others to do the same. I can't remember if cover still makes the paladin take the full damage that is being taken by the covered, but I can't see people taking enhanced cover with such a niche use when enhanced bulwark is around. Enhanced shield oath sounds like you just enforcing your own agenda to me.
As for the swordsmanship side, regardless of the strength of each enhancement compared to each other, I dont think most paladins would take any of them, even if some paladins don't even raid and would therefore probably benefit more from enhanced CoS than bulwark because they only get to do 4man dungeons, either because others saying bulwark is the best choice (just like non raiders buying bis sold pieces first) or because they hope they'll get to go to coil somewhere down the line. Also, since silence mechanics would likely never be designed to need the 24 second trait, then the trait becomes a straight dps enhancement trait. Was that the aim of the trait? -
08-07-2014, 05:14 PMDuelleConsidering the devs implemented an invincibility skill that some monster attacks and spells ignore (Invincible/Hallowed Ground), I would also think that the devs would implement spells that would ignore E.Bulwark. Most boss spells would be a given, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardes
Enh.Provoke is aimed to be more of a QoL change in a way. As I mentioned, it's also how I think Provoke should have been from the start.Quote:
Most paladins would probably end up rejecting enhanced provoke because there would be people with the pretense of being 'pro' and therefore claiming to not need the 6 seconds leeway the trait gives and in effect encourage others to do the same.
I admit this would be also useful in PvP if you have a tendency to protect casters and healers (AKA the two archetypes that get trained in frontlines). It may be too good in Wolf's Den, though. There are times where saving that caster/healer from death is better than reflecting a BLM's Sleep right back at them.Quote:
I can't remember if cover still makes the paladin take the full damage that is being taken by the covered, but I can't see people taking enhanced cover with such a niche use when enhanced bulwark is around.
More like me reacting to the agenda of other people. I've never asked for stronger cures on PLD because frankly speaking, PLD doesn't really need it. I could use ideas on how to enhance Shield Oath, though, so if you have any suggestions feel free to share. As long as it doesn't involve the PLD going into negative HP before dying I'm all ears.Quote:
Enhanced shield oath sounds like you just enforcing your own agenda to me.
Leeway more than anything else. There's been spots where I've needed to interrupt something and cursed the fact that Spirits is still on cooldown. I agree that the need for interrupts would need to be greater for this to be useful, but that's more on the side of encounter design.Quote:
Also, since silence mechanics would likely never be designed to need the 24 second trait, then the trait becomes a straight dps enhancement trait. Was that the aim of the trait?
Thanks for taking the time to reply to the thread. -
08-07-2014, 05:52 PMJandor
It would be nice if once we hit level 50 we could go back to our class guild and/or job trainer and spend tomes to get quests to learn advanced techniques. They could add an extra slot to the cross-class skill menu where we can pick which one to equip so we're not locked into a bad choice :) .
Taking the OP's idea a bit, the Gladiator guild leader could teach you extra offense abilities and traits while the job trainer would be more interested in teaching you new defensive techniques.
Edit: It would also open the way for other more generic trainers, for instance the OIC staff might teach you a skill that lets you plant your FC flag in the ground providing a boost for all nearby members (not available in dungeons.) -
08-07-2014, 06:38 PMDuelleYou mean something like spending 1000 myth tomes to get "Training Manual: Riot Blade", do something with the manual then speak with Mylla to learn the enhanced Riot Blade?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
I'm not opposed to extra or flavor abilities and spell. Those would need their own category, though.Quote:
It would also open the way for other more generic trainers
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08-07-2014, 07:10 PMCynric
sounds like specs from wow.
but while having any form of customization is nice, We will just decide whats best overall and that type will be required or preferred over the other. Like in your examples, Id like my tanks to tank better so id prefer them to be defense traited. no need for sword spec x.x -
08-07-2014, 07:47 PMJandorWell, I was thinking the other way around. Go to Mylla and spend 1000 myth to get "Training Manual: Riot Blade" which has some questing in it with 'Enhanced Riot Blade' as the reward, but yeah :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
In an effort to prevent that I'd personally lean towards creating skills that enhance sub-roles rather than main roles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
For example I'd give Paladins a variety of options for either damage or buffing but nothing for tanking, Warriors would get access to some debuff or control abilities, Monks might get the ability to make Second Wind an AoE ability.
If you create a bunch of extra "optional" tank skills for a tank role then they become mandatory, but if you create ways for them to be better at things outside their main aspect instead I think they'd be much more optional or situational.
Edit: I miss the pre-30 dungeons where with some co-ordination, skill and good use of CC abilities an Arcanist could be the tank, a Lancer could OT and a Thaumaturge would be on heal duty. Some pushing to get people out of those comfortable trinity roles would be a nice change of pace :) .
Edit 2: Ok, I'm getting further and further away from the OP. I'm going to stop now :p. -
08-07-2014, 08:14 PMTsuwu
Whoo!
1.14 guild currencies coming back ftw!
But seriously, I think it would be a good idea as you've described it, OP.
Make players start differentiating. Please.
Everyone is the same carbon copy if they're completely end-gamed out in full BiS with perfect rotation.
Would love there to be this type of forced choosing of specialization. -
08-07-2014, 10:41 PMRenikI don't think you know what the merit system is... and i didn't recognize any of the things you explained about it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Your system is not bad, but you started saying this would be an alternate system to specialized stats, the gear system is lacking depth, is boring and there's no incentive to get new pieces unless you feel forced because of the ilvl requirements, and you can't fix it with a "merit" system.
Your idea is good but it is by no means an alternative to specialized stats in gear. -
08-08-2014, 09:32 AMDuellePart of me thinks there would need to be a grind aspect to this approach. Like the manual requiring you to use Riot Blade by itself 50 times then requiring you to combo into Riot Blade 50 times before Mylla would even want to talk to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
The key is making stuff not-mandatory within the same role as the job. If you look at my suggestions, none really change the game for PLD but are slight upgrades and QoL changes. This would mean they are options available but your job can still tank without them.Quote:
If you create a bunch of extra "optional" tank skills for a tank role then they become mandatory, but if you create ways for them to be better at things outside their main aspect instead I think they'd be much more optional or situational.