New token/oil upgrade system screws healers

If your goal is progression. Then you will give your tokens to the DPS ,followed by tanks and healers last only when you can clear the content reliably.

I main whm and i care about progression . So I will pass the tokens and oils. But i want the ilvl110 gear too. I can only really start to take it(without feeling selfish) after my static beats Turn 9.

Similar situation happens in levi ex. But not as bad because theres is no lockout on levi ex. Coil has a lockout though so my rate of getting ilvl110 is going to be very slow.

I would much prefer everyone getting a token or oil per coil downed. Perhaps upgrading requiring 2-3 tokens instead of one? Another way to create 2 versions of the oils. One for dps and one for healer/tanks. Then drop 1 of each per coil turn.

This is not a personal issue. My static would say nothing if I rolled for oils but it is inefficient to do so. They would even encourage me to take them.

I hope yoshi p takes this into consideration when the next progression raid patch is released. Gear is a big motivator to do raids for alot of us. So its bad design currently.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It's entirely true that if you value overall group effectiveness, efficiency, and progress above all else, healers are going to be the absolute last to get their Sands and Oils. That's pretty much an undeniable fact, due to the very nature of healing versus damage (and arguably even healing versus tank survivability).
And it's also entirely true that if you value distributing rewards equally more than you value group effectiveness/efficiency/progress, this problem is easily circumvented by just giving healers the same chances as other roles for casting lots on those upgrade items.

But there's no good reason whatsoever why a group should have to choose between min/maxing their group progress, and making sure that all members of the group are receiving regular rewards for the time and effort they put into the group. Awarding one Oil or Sand to every player in the party would ensure that nobody has to make that choice, and would still not trivialize progression, as A) Sands and Oils can only be used to upgrade equipment that is already under the Soldiery lockout, and B) Are only obtained from getting deep into the Second Coil, meaning that nobody is receiving something they "don't deserve" and everyone who gets them has completed much of the most difficult content in the game.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i still think the system is quite bad, let's take a minute and think. a static have someone that leave for X reason, if they want to replace him, they will have a player in i100 at best. if you don't have any luck with the drop. this player will need (even at 2 per week) 3 at 4 week for get gears. we don't have tons of times before the 2.4... we have 23 weeks if they follow the planning. the 2.3 will add CT, maybe with luck this is will drop i110 (i doubt it) and sand/oil but you will have 12 week behind for finish..

this system is bad in soo many way. it relly too much on RNG for increase the duration of the game. for a good static, is not really a problem, but for the other group it will become a huge wall. they are making a game at 2 speed, do i am the only one to see it?

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The logic of your statements makes me rub my head. Why would the DDs be more important than the healers and tanks (in that order)? DDs dish out the damage, yes, but what good can a dead player do? And a tank is only as good as the healing keeping them alive. If your group is anything worth their salt they will let the healer have first crack at the drops or, if they healer rolls and wins, won't complain about it cause it means better healing (maybe) and more healer MP (big maybe) to heal with. How this would 'impede progress' is beyond me...

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

The logic of your statements makes me rub my head. Why would the DDs be more important than the healers and tanks (in that order)? DDs dish out the damage, yes, but what good can a dead player do? And a tank is only as good as the healing keeping them alive. If your group is anything worth their salt they will let the healer have first crack at the drops or, if they healer rolls and wins, won't complain about it cause it means better healing (maybe) and more healer MP (big maybe) to heal with. How this would 'impede progress' is beyond me...

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Healer is more about skill then gear. The way the content is design is around dps checks and the healing required is actually quite low and easily reachable by full ilvl90.

+10hp cured after getting your ilvl110 peice. Will make zero difference in whether you can heal a fight or not. Compare this to the extra dps which can make the difference between getting past a phase or not and killing adds or not.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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look at twintania for example: tanks and healers keep everyone afloat, but dps have to force the phases at certain times or else everything becomes hectic. having dps with stronger gear gives them more freedom.

@op: you'll probably be getting sands/oils way before you clear turn 9...

it doesn't screw healers, you / your group just choose to do things that way.

people who have gotten the least High Allagan pieces get to greed on the Oils, people who have gotten Oils don't get to greed more till the whole group is fairly even.

people who've gotten Unidentified Allagan Tomestone don't get Mirrors from Lev or vice versa.

people who have Weathered Weapons get the Sands. that's really all there is to it imo.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

The logic of your statements makes me rub my head. Why would the DDs be more important than the healers and tanks (in that order)? DDs dish out the damage, yes, but what good can a dead player do? And a tank is only as good as the healing keeping them alive. If your group is anything worth their salt they will let the healer have first crack at the drops or, if they healer rolls and wins, won't complain about it cause it means better healing (maybe) and more healer MP (big maybe) to heal with. How this would 'impede progress' is beyond me...

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In terms of gearing, DPS gearing is more important because the differences are a lot bigger. The collective amount of increased DPS will be way more significant against a boss than the extra 10-20 HP you're getting per heal. Boss fights are timed based on damage done. Healers in current gear already have a very good buffer for new content. DPS and tanks need to upgrade the fastest, because tanks hold the boss and DPS push the fight. That's how it's been in pretty much every MMO I've played.

My static just distributes sand/oils/tomes evenly. Each person can only win one sand/oil and one tome until everyone else has gotten one so it is fair for everyone. This system doesn't screw anyone.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

The logic of your statements makes me rub my head. Why would the DDs be more important than the healers and tanks (in that order)? DDs dish out the damage, yes, but what good can a dead player do? And a tank is only as good as the healing keeping them alive. If your group is anything worth their salt they will let the healer have first crack at the drops or, if they healer rolls and wins, won't complain about it cause it means better healing (maybe) and more healer MP (big maybe) to heal with. How this would 'impede progress' is beyond me...

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He's saying that because, assuming a group is competent enough to defeat Turn X but can't beat it due to gear requirements, the common problem is a lack of dps causing an enrage that ends the fight or prolongs abilites/phases that should be dismissed faster. After this come the tanks for survivability, and lastly, healing potency is usually not a problem unless the gap between ilvls is extreme.

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Originally Posted by KyroeFelix

My static just distributes sand/oils/tomes evenly. Each person can only win one sand/oil and one tome until everyone else has gotten one so it is fair for everyone. This system doesn't screw anyone.

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Cutting edge guilds are probably not doing this. Those who care more about progression will choose to allot gear to dps.

Giving everyone a token is way better design...

Your static could always say for example "If you take gear in a run, then you can't take the tokens/oils, then you have the best of both worlds, part of the complaints about coil turns 1-5 was if you didn't get lucky with drops you didn't get any reward. But now if for example through the second coil, you see no WHM gear drop you can still get something, it just depends on the loot rules of your static.