"A system that rewards effort and innovation" can't be buzzwords for imbalance-get

Things that aren't "innovation" so much as they are copouts designed to step around any system that aims to reward effort and innovation:

Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Kiting
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Terrain blocking
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": DoT death by attrition
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Bind rotations
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Stunlocking
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Don't feed it TP.
Mob doesn't die fast enough. "Innovation": Rangering ranger on their rangers
Mob has heavy AoE. "Innovation": Rangering ranger on their rangers
Too many mobs. "Innovation": Manaburning
Too many mobs. "Innovation": Spike damage whoring
Devastating AoE debilititations. "Innovation": No meleers.
Timed fight with pressure. "Innovation": Zerg rushing

Unless the developers have novel ideas on how the population won't take their "system that rewards effort and innovation" and turn it into a system that "rewards archers and thaumaturges for being archers and thaumaturges" I really don't see this new direction enhancing the game's quality.

Effort will become "If you want to be useful, level a useful job."
Innovation will become...well nothing. It'll be the same copouts the population has relied on to shirk difficult content for years.

The tanks, mages, and ranged fans in the crowd are licking their lips at these buzzwords, because they know that ultimately it's their jobs that will come out on top of the ensuing mess. Sorry meleers. Looks like you'll be standing in the corner of the Ouryu fight again, lest you ruin the blm's "innovation."

Player-driven innovation is weak, derivative, exclusionary, and elitist.

Innovation can only come through the developers ironically, in creating a challenging system that doesn't exclude people but rather by necessity includes everyone who plays the game. Not just the same jobs over and over.

People will claim it's the players' faults for resorting to cheap tactics and relying on the easywin tactics, but it isn't. It's the developers' faults for not designing quality game design. If their solution to an easy game is to just throw a berserk boss fest at 20% HP, a bunch of paralyze-class AoE's at the players, and to make them hit like a truck...well we already know how to handle those situations: just bring the 3 best classes in the game suitable for that kind of cliché "difficulty" and ditch the dead weight.

Cliché challenge calls for cliché behaviors. They worked before. They'll work again. I don't want to see this game become a playground for prima donna archers and mages like FFXI did from years 1-4, and we'll be well down that road come fall unless the developers have some NEW challenge up their sleeves that demands REAL innovation and effort.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Things that aren't "innovation" so much as they are copouts designed to step around any system that aims to reward effort and innovation:

Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Kiting
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Terrain blocking
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": DoT death by attrition
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Bind rotations
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Stunlocking
Mob hits too hard. "Innovation": Don't feed it TP.
Mob doesn't die fast enough. "Innovation": Rangering ranger on their rangers
Mob has heavy AoE. "Innovation": Rangering ranger on their rangers
Too many mobs. "Innovation": Manaburning
Too many mobs. "Innovation": Spike damage whoring
Devastating AoE debilititations. "Innovation": No meleers.
Timed fight with pressure. "Innovation": Zerg rushing

Unless the developers have novel ideas on how the population won't take their "system that rewards effort and innovation" and turn it into a system that "rewards archers and thaumaturges for being archers and thaumaturges" I really don't see this new direction enhancing the game's quality.

Effort will become "If you want to be useful, level a useful job."
Innovation will become...well nothing. It'll be the same copouts the population has relied on to shirk difficult content for years.

The tanks, mages, and ranged fans in the crowd are licking their lips at these buzzwords, because they know that ultimately it's their jobs that will come out on top of the ensuing mess. Sorry meleers. Looks like you'll be standing in the corner of the Ouryu fight again, lest you ruin the blm's "innovation."

Player-driven innovation is weak, derivative, exclusionary, and elitist.

Innovation can only come through the developers ironically, in creating a challenging system that doesn't exclude people but rather by necessity includes everyone who plays the game. Not just the same jobs over and over.

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Criticizing a system you haven't experienced yet, eh? Still on the same old rant, eh? Just more of the same from you I suppose.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Criticizing a system you haven't experienced yet, eh? Still on the same old rant, eh? Just more of the same from you I suppose.

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Major lesson FFXIV should have taught you by now: Don't assume the developers can get it right without help and guidance. In fact, assume they can't.
You're willing to take the chance that they know what they're doing. I'm not at this point. My guess is that they already have boss berserk modes at 20% health and massive sleep/paralyze/AoEs that hit anything hard in range as a solution.

And the solution to that will be to get rid of players with your profile.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Major lesson FFXIV should have taught you by now: Don't assume the developers can get it right without help and guidance. In fact, assume they can't.
You're willing to take the chance that they know what they're doing. I'm not at this point. My guess is that they already have boss berserk modes at 20% health and massive sleep/paralyze/AoEs that hit anything hard in range as a solution.

And the solution to that will get rid of players with your profile.

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Players with my profile? I don't even know what that means.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Players with my profile? I don't even know what that means.

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I think the OP means that you'd be excluded because she has somehow divined that this new system will exclude melee players.

@OP -

There will be room for criticism after this new system is actually implemented, because at this point you don't even know what you're complaining about.

Note, I do hope that this system is an all inclusive system. I don't want this game to become FFXI-2, but I also have some faith in this team, and the new direction that they're trying to take this game in. Hence why I don't shoot down every idea as it's presented. I want this game to evolve, and the only way for it to do that is by letting the developers throw some new paint on the walls to see if it sticks.

Oh there's plenty of room for criticism now. Only a fool would expect different results by doing the same thing over.
I'm not shooting down the idea that the game should become challenging. I'm simply acknowledging the fact that unelss the developers have something new up their sleeves, it's going to be FFXI-2.

You all are willing to wait until there's a problem. That's fine, but that's inferior to seeing a problem coming, and never allowing it to happen.

There are only three classes in this game of any use in difficult content. Gladiator, thaumaturge, and archer. That's not by innovation. That's by abuse of poor design.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Oh there's plenty of room for criticism now. Only a fool would expect different results by doing the same thing over.
I'm not shooting down the idea that the game should become challenging. I'm simply acknowledging the fact that unelss the developers have something new up their sleeves, it's going to be FFXI-2.

You all are willing to wait until there's a problem. That's fine, but that's inferior to seeing a problem coming, and never allowing it to happen.

There are only three jobs in this game of any use in difficult content. Gladiator, thaumaturge, and archer. That's not by innovation. That's by abuse of poor design.

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That's your opinion, which you are more than welcome to, but I disagree wholeheartedly. The Devs have stated that actions are going to be adjusted in the coming patch(es). I will wait to see the results before making any snap judgments myself.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Oh there's plenty of room for criticism now. Only a fool would expect different results by doing the same thing over.
I'm not shooting down the idea that the game should become challenging. I'm simply acknowledging the fact that unelss the developers have something new up their sleeves, it's going to be FFXI-2.

You all are willing to wait until there's a problem. That's fine, but that's inferior to seeing a problem coming, and never allowing it to happen.

There are only three classes in this game of any use in difficult content. Gladiator, thaumaturge, and archer. That's not by innovation. That's by abuse of poor design.

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Sorry, but this post just comes off as kinda hysterical.

You're making a big assumption that there is a "problem" coming, based on a promise of innovation. Would you rather Yoshi-P have stated in his letter that there is no innovation coming, and that the system will remain stagnant? What where you expecting?

You don't have to see their results. Look at the game balance now. The only reason the grossly imbalanced classes aren't ruining the game is precisely because there's no pressure--no challenging content--to evolve it into the disaster it's getting ready to become.

Just like adding a rare, restricted, unreaplaceable sellable piece would destroy the economy--it'd sell for 200 million gil... adding challenging content will destroy any pretence of class balance. People already have mass-levelled their token thaumaturges and archers in anticipation that they'll be the 1st-class classes. Now they're just itching for an excuse to stack 6 of them.

The developers need to realize that unless they have new challenge and new difficulty design up their sleeves that go beyond the pathetic berserk modes, meleer-penalizing attacks, and things that the player base can't handle without resorting to cheap tactics...this is what they'll get. Glad, Archerx6, THM. Glad, THMx4, ARCx2. THMx8.

That's not innovation. And yet that's the solution to nearly any cliche challenge the devs are likely to throw out there.

Have faith in a player base you can't trust to not exclude players, and have faith in a developer who couldn't make a hit if their lives depended on it right now is what you're saying.

No. That's not very smart.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

You don't have to see their results. Look at the game balance now. The only reason the grossly imbalanced classes aren't ruining the game is precisely because there's no pressure--no challenging content--to evolve it into the disaster it's getting ready to become.

Just like adding a rare, restricted, unreaplaceable sellable piece would destroy the economy--it'd sell for 200 million gil... adding challenging content will destroy any pretence of class balance. People already have mass-levelled their token thaumaturges and archers in anticipation that they'll be the 1st-class classes. Now they're just itching for an excuse to stack 6 of them.

The developers need to realize that unless they have new challenge and new difficulty design up their sleeves that go beyond the pathetic berserk modes, meleer-penalizing attacks, and things that the player base can't handle without resorting to cheap tactics...this is what they'll get. Glad, Archerx6, THM. Glad, THMx4, ARCx2. THMx8.

That's not innovation. And yet that's the solution to nearly any cliche challenge the devs are likely to throw out there.

Have faith in a player base you can't trust to not exclude players, and have faith in a developer who couldn't make a hit if their lives depended on it right now is what you're saying.

No. That's not very smart.

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You have no way of knowing that they aren't going to be doing a lot of balancing as it stands in the next few patches.