What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Man, I’m still bummed out the Ivalice stuff is just put on indefinite hold. They address the inevitable downfall of Garlemald during the Bozja stuff, while propping up Noah as someone who will salvage it and pull an even grander nation out of its ashes, only for everything to suddenly just stop, with Noah being assassinated… or something in supplemental material. His story could've at least served as an excuse to have a proper Othard expansion and cover regions we've missed in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s a good thought actually. Yeah they could have very easily used that storyline to let us explore regions in the far east we may have never been able to or even get to at this rate. Such a major shame. I was so looking forward to meeting with Noah as well, seeing how he would react to us, maybe he’d persuade us to join his cause?Wouldve been an interesting exchange for sure.

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Noah was a very intriguing character and I do wish we'd seen more of him. I was especially interested in learning more of Goug - especially since there's a bit of dialogue about it being where a group of Garleans lived before moving over to Corvos and then later being driven out of that place as well.

We may or may not get Matsuno returning to work on some FFXIV content. I hope we do - because it'd be a good opportunity to make further use of some of the characters who survived the events of the Bozja storyline.

From what I've seen, the conclusion in the field notes does leave things open ended enough for Noah to make a potential return. Especially if he happened to make use of Aulus' research to hop into a different body by becoming a Resonant.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Just because some members of the localization team have extremely hot takes against the people who didn't like certain elements of EW's story doesn't mean there's some conspiracy going on.

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To be fair, if people employed by the company are commenting on player reactions to the game's story then I think it is perfectly acceptable for fans of the game's story who are within the very same group being addressed to bring it up as a conversation point in a thread relating to the story. I'm simply pointing out that it may or may not explain a few things - though I encourage everybody to come to their own conclusions.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

They said this to a person who literally introduced unrelated Twitter posts to bring up complaints about the Far Left. I think the argument of "who wants to remind us what political ideology is bad" was already well underway.

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Confirmation bias. Blown out of proportion. You sure do love to be outraged by every little thing and I'm sure you actively search for things that will outrage you. Chill out and take care.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Things got...weird in here since I last looked. But yeah, let's not try to inject real world politics into this whole situation

Just because some members of the localization team have extremely hot takes against the people who didn't like certain elements of EW's story doesn't mean there's some conspiracy going on.

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This. Only daily dead horse beatings allowed please lol.

Aaaaaaaaaaanyways, drama aside, that one tweet doesn't even make sense. Venat's plan necessitated the Ascians play their part in orchestrating the 7 rejoining's in order for our history to exist. A far better comparison would be someone declaring themselves group leader and deciding everyone else's roles on their behalf... and then declaring she did all the work on her own like her codex entry suggests.

Ah, man. I just linked this thread to someone on Reddit who felt like an outsider for not liking EW. Let's just get back to that, shall we?

Speaking of which, there's a thread on r/ffxivdiscussion about which character do you hate that everyone loves if anyone is interested. :P

As far as I am aware twitter is a public space. Logic follows that if you do not want your thoughts to be known, perhaps then you do not need to post them on twitter or have them under likes. In any case the primary concern is that the story went off the rails in Endwalker, and I am waiting to see where we go from here and begging for the return of the Heavensward writers and possibly Koji but FFXVI could very well be another forever in development game with how little information there is about it.

Wasn't he responsible for all of the humor and quirks back in the ARR days? I am excited to see if there's more of that in FFXVI's Valisthea. He made ARR's world quite rich especially in those early days of exploring Central Coerthas, when the game really hooked me. I do not know if the present writing direction is capable of such, since they prefer to take a very whirl-wind like approach towards new areas, sending us back and forth everywhere instead of letting us see the zones to their logical conclusions, similar to how things worked in Heavensward and Shadowbringers.

That being said how in the world does someone compare the Venat situation to being the only one working on a group project? Venat was a heroine *at one point* and then she fell to hubris and the world of the Ancients was partly destroyed due to her lack of taking appropriate action. The only logical comparison I can make to her is to that of a fallen angel, a role she fills more accurately than being a "supreme deity."

Combing the Twitter feeds of some people who work on the game, complaining about far left agendas in video games? This is starting to get weird you guys.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

This. Only daily dead horse beatings allowed please lol.

Aaaaaaaaaaanyways, drama aside, that one tweet doesn't even make sense. Venat's plan necessitated the Ascians play their part in orchestrating the 7 rejoining's in order for our history to exist. A far better comparison would be someone declaring themselves group leader and deciding everyone else's roles on their behalf... and then declaring she did all the work on her own like her codex entry suggests.

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Not to mention a certain dark god symbol of hope and salvation carrying the whole world on his beefy winged back for 12k years. More than that, considering the time between his summoning and the shattering.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Ah, man. I just linked this thread to someone on Reddit who felt like an outsider for not liking EW. Let's just get back to that, shall we?

Speaking of which, there's a thread on r/ffxivdiscussion about which character do you hate that everyone loves if anyone is interested. :P

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Actually agree with almost a whole reddit thread for once, what is this.

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Well, G'raha is just a full on fan service character now. Shallow is the word(dare i say... annoying also?). Same applies to Emet in EW. It feels like when SE catches on that a character is widely liked, they flip a "fan service" switch and that's all the character is for from then on.

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Especially this... I'm actually getting some cold feet for Emet at this point, especially with 5.3, the bit at the end of UT, and the numerous flashbacks in 6.1 (yeah, I know, we're just doing his ADVENTURE grocery list). I enjoyed him in ShB and did like seeing his OG form in EW, but I'd say I am overall more of a general Ancient/Ascian fan than 'all Emet all the time'. I do really wish things revolved less around our protagonist being this god that everyone must fawn over... as aptly symbolized by Azem being the sun that everything revolves around. I reiterate: I liked the Azem thing at first, but now I think it's a mistake.

I made this entire race and its hopes go extinct, but at least I got this convenient orange gummi plot device!

I'm not really one to 'hate' any given character. Most of my dislikes are entirely due to a lack of consistency between what was established in previous expansions compared to how it aligns with what happened in Endwalker. In other words, the very same factor that caused me to stop caring about WoW's ongoing story.

The other major factor for me is overexposure. There's a wealth of interesting characters in this game and so many of them are forced to hide away and never see the light of day after their initial use because apparently we need the Scions to be present at every single turn. Which, again, just reminds me of how often Sylvanas and Anduin wore thin in World of Warcraft...

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Actually agree with almost a whole reddit thread for once, what is this.

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G'raha haters rejoice? :P I'm not going to lie, it's impossible for them to give me too much Emet unless they go full stupid with him like they have with other characters in mascot costumes or doing cutesy voices.

I've seen theories that there's a magnetic quality to the Azem soul. I'm not sure how I'd feel about that. While it would explain some things it'd also be like, great, everyone only likes me cause my aether is made up of Love Potion #9.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm not really one to 'hate' any given character.

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Minfilia's the only character I hate. I even skip her cutscenes, I just can't stand her.

Edit: I repressed Hermes/Fandaniel from my memory.

I always have a hard time buying into the idea that largely silent protagonists are super charismatic. I also generally prefer a character I create to not end up being the most important person wherever they go. I think it was Aveyond who brought up Dragon Age in another thread, though I suppose that's an excellent example of the sort of party dynamic I enjoy where characters can very much clash and even oppose each other from time to time and won't just accept everything that the player character suggests or seeks to go along with.

The very same party dynamics can be found in many of the single player Final Fantasy games. I suppose at this point the writers may have written themselves into a corner where they can't have any real strife amongst the Scions...or the City State leaders because they're too firmly entrenched within their respective roles. Which is unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I always have a hard time buying into the idea that largely silent protagonists are super charismatic.

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Doesn't matter. The WoL is hot and everyone has a bit of Limsa lust in them. :P

Azem seemed charismatic, not so much the WoL. I suspect in their case it's because they're willing to take on others' burdens/fights, that's typically endearing.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

That being said how in the world does someone compare the Venat situation to being the only one working on a group project? Venat was a heroine *at one point* and then she fell to hubris and the world of the Ancients was partly destroyed due to her lack of taking appropriate action. The only logical comparison I can make to her is to that of a fallen angel, a role she fills more accurately than being a "supreme deity."

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If anything Venat is the person that refuses to help on the project and watches her teammates struggle to get the project done in enough time. Right as the project is turned in she emails the professor to say everyone else wasn’t doing their work and that’s been doing the entire project alone by herself. She even makes up some fake screenshots as proof to convince the professor that everyone else is failing. Venat then takes all the credits and gets an A.

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Originally Posted by RoroCookies

If anything Venat is the person that refuses to help on the project and watches her teammates struggle to get the project done in enough time. Right as the project is turned in she emails the professor to say everyone else wasn’t doing their work and that’s been doing the entire project alone by herself. She even makes up some fake screenshots as proof to convince the professor that everyone else is failing. Venat then takes all the credits and gets an A.

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Gods this is accurate. Thanks for the laugh!

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Not to mention a certain dark god symbol of hope and salvation carrying the whole world on his beefy winged back for 12k years. More than that, considering the time between his summoning and the shattering.

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Shush! His name must he scrubbed from the annals of history. From now on, we refer to him as "Manifestation of that ill-fated wish."

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

G'raha haters rejoice? :P I'm not going to lie, it's impossible for them to give me too much Emet unless they go full stupid with him like they have with other characters in mascot costumes or doing cutesy voices.

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I feel we were a quarter of the way there with Elpis. I liked his dynamic with Hythlodeus, but I feel I would've grown to dislike him as well if we stuck around any longer. I could practically feel the flanderization kicking in as he slowly devolved into a hardcore tsundere the longer it went on lol. Also, "Remember us, remember that we once lived" was such a good line that I really wanted that to be my final memory of him.

Anyways, Y'shtola would probably be mine. Don't hate her, but damn, she could've been scrubbed completely from EW's MSQ and I likely wouldn't've noticed.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Minfilia's the only character I hate. I even skip her cutscenes, I just can't stand her.

Edit: I repressed Hermes/Fandaniel from my memory.

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The only character I actively hate is Venat/Hydaelyn. Even reprehensible figures like Valens I feel less vitriol for because he is never presented as anything other than what he is, a particularly nasty villain. And Hermes? He's an absolute donkey but in the end he wiped his own memory like a coward so that he had no idea what was coming. Venat retained hers and and remained nothing but calculating and manipulative to the last. She doesn't even have his pathetic excuse. The writers' attempt to force me to believe that she is my light and savior and all things good has forced the complete opposite reaction from me. I can't even see the suggestion of a big, blue crystal without cringing. That necklace and earring they gave as part of the 6.1 quest? The ones that look like little bit of Hydaelyn that you can wear over your heart forever and ever? Could not toss that shit away fast enough. May it lie in the dust of Revenant's Toll for eternity.

The main reason I don't say Venat is because she was likeable at one point, Minfilia never was for me. I might not even feel as adverse towards Hermes if he'd kept Asahi's VA. It's not for lack of acting talent, I just find the new voice difficult on my ears.

I still think Venat is arguably the game's main antagonist simply because every issue we encounter is a direct result of the sundering not the Final Days. I'm also not convinced that the Final Days would've been as bad as they were had the Ancients been given the knowledge to prepare for them, which is also squarely on her. Had they not committed to subverting expectations by trying to portray her as a tragic heroine she might've made one Hell of a villain.

Speaking of Valens, he was exactly what I was hoping that Zenos and Fandaniel would be. I couldn't help but feel disappointed that Endwalker had so many creepy aesthetics to call upon yet still managed to be fairly subdued when push came to shove. It's actually kind of weird. We explore a big fleshy tower and there's elephant people fused into the walls but somehow they all escape completely unscathed. We do get to see some grotesque looking blasphemies later on but by that point Fandaniel had already left the picture. I think it's a real shame he didn't go out with a bigger bang.

In the end, both Zenos and Fandaniel barely inflicted any real harm upon the protagonists and seemed to exist mainly to just rid the chess board of both the Ancients and the Garleans.

Honestly, I would love if the remaining Garlean legions decided to band together into a unified threat using all of the nastiest magitek available to them like synthetic auracite and the Resonant along with all the horror that might entail for the people of the provinces given their precedent for use of human resources/testing.

I think them finding some way to exploit dynamis and blasphemies would be an interesting follow-up to the potentially important detail from the role quests that there's still enough fallout from the Final Days to permit transformations.

I did think about that so much can be done in the hundred or thousands of years by Venat.....she could have at least tell Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus what happened and maybe save her world rather than just watch things progress like if the worrier of light never visited her....

I don't understand why she would wait for the worrier of light to do everything.....

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Originally Posted by Palslow

I don't understand why she would wait for the worrier of light to do everything.....

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Because she was specifically waiting for a sundered being to rise to the occasion and prove that mankind has a reason to live. If noone arose, man would have failed in finding the answer to "the question", and their oblivion will have occurred. But that isn't Venats problem or something LOLOL

The terrible, nonsensical sentence structure of this thread's title irritates me to no end.

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Originally Posted by RoroCookies

If anything Venat is the person that refuses to help on the project and watches her teammates struggle to get the project done in enough time. Right as the project is turned in she emails the professor to say everyone else wasn’t doing their work and that’s been doing the entire project alone by herself. She even makes up some fake screenshots as proof to convince the professor that everyone else is failing. Venat then takes all the credits and gets an A.

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That's what I was thinking. It's the exact opposite. Gets the A or the big promotion, and rather thank thank the guy putting in all the hard work and building the entire infrastructure for the project, she shoves them down the stairs by "accident" and locks the closet they fall into while accusing them of sabotage.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Ah, man. I just linked this thread to someone on Reddit who felt like an outsider for not liking EW. Let's just get back to that, shall we?

Speaking of which, there's a thread on r/ffxivdiscussion about which character do you hate that everyone loves if anyone is interested. :P

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Gee.... that's going to be a hard one! Some good discussion on there, though.

Got into a discussion in that thread about how every character's agency is ruined with the time loop as 'nobody could do anything differently' in order for the WoL to journey to Elpis. Then in an unrelated thread I saw someone quote Ardbert's "we did everything right" line and I thought, yeah, he did exactly what he was meant to do.

I genuinely don't understand what's satisfying about time loops and I've seen plenty of people say they prefer them to AUs. Near as I can tell, the one in EW completely undermined the agency of every major character in the foundation of the lore that establishes the world as we know it. Now that I think about it, had they gone the full Greek tragedy route similar to Oedipus where in trying to avoid an outcome it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, that might've made me like/sympathize with Venat. Instead, she chooses to follow the roadmap to the future the WoL gave her for nonsensical reasons.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Got into a discussion in that thread about how every character's agency is ruined with the time loop as 'nobody could do anything differently' in order for the WoL to journey to Elpis. Then in an unrelated thread I saw someone quote Ardbert's "we did everything right" line and I thought, yeah, he did exactly what he was meant to do.

I genuinely don't understand what's satisfying about time loops and I've seen plenty of people say they prefer them to AUs. Near as I can tell, the one in EW completely undermined the agency of every major character in the foundation of the lore that establishes the world as we know it. Now that I think about it, had they gone the full Greek tragedy route similar to Oedipus where in trying to avoid an outcome it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, that might've made me like/sympathize with Venat. Instead, she chooses to follow the roadmap to the future the WoL gave her for nonsensical reasons.

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The "romance" of time loops is sense of "destiny". Things had to happen this way, because the cosmic order needs them to happen this way, and you have a role in it.

A lot of people enjoy the idea that destiny shapes their lives. Societies like the Norse, Hindus, and some portions of Greco-Roman antiquity found comfort in the idea that your life was given meaning by whatever fate you were given. Free will is much more appealing to most people these days, but there's still lots of people who like to believe in things like "God's plan" and whatnot.

In fiction, the narrative irony and setup > payoff arc of time loops are also appealing. It works in a similar vein to things like foreshadowing and Chekhov's Guns. I'm reminded of movies like the first Terminator, where part of the intrigue was learning how much of the future was destined to happen. For example, the scene where Sarah asks about her future son, and Kyle tells her that John "is about [his] height with [her] eyes" hits different after you learn that Kyle himself is John's father.

I probably have to agree a little bit that some time loops can be very satisfying when done right. But I just don’t feel that with ffxiv. I think the problem is that we have different types of time travel in ffxiv so it feels a bit off.

Well, it's no secret I wasn't the target audience for just about anything in EW from the themes to the main story arc. I'm agnostic on a good day. I believe life is a series of dice rolls that can't be controlled for or predicted, which is why bad things happen to good people and vice versa. As such, I would've found someone actively trying to carve a different path yet inadvertently leading to the same outcome more compelling.

Destiny only works if yours is positive. Telling someone they're destined to fail at every endeavor and die penniless and alone is significantly less 'romantic'. I understand faith as a necessity to deal with the struggles of life, but what we got wasn't a happy story. It still resulted in the obliteration of the parent civilization, the destruction of numerous worlds, apparently the extermination of tens of thousands of souls based on the scope of the blasphemies in Thavnair alone. Etheirys was "saved" but not only at a multi-apocalyptic cost, but one that was arguably unnecessary in the first place. Just because the WoL and Scions came out unscathed (as usual) didn't make it a feel good ending.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Got into a discussion in that thread about how every character's agency is ruined with the time loop as 'nobody could do anything differently' in order for the WoL to journey to Elpis. Then in an unrelated thread I saw someone quote Ardbert's "we did everything right" line and I thought, yeah, he did exactly what he was meant to do.

I genuinely don't understand what's satisfying about time loops and I've seen plenty of people say they prefer them to AUs. Near as I can tell, the one in EW completely undermined the agency of every major character in the foundation of the lore that establishes the world as we know it. Now that I think about it, had they gone the full Greek tragedy route similar to Oedipus where in trying to avoid an outcome it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, that might've made me like/sympathize with Venat. Instead, she chooses to follow the roadmap to the future the WoL gave her for nonsensical reasons.

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I don't like how it's used by some to try paint her actions as an inevitability, and I think with matters such as time travel, there are just too many variables to even attempt to control it so tightly as to ensure an exact future - not unless everything is strictly pre-determined or something with a bird's eye view can control events to ensure a certain outcome is reached. I personally am waiting to see if they will reveal what it tells us about the nature of the universe and whether it's all determined in advance in some respect, and what this means for the characters' agency, or whether it can just appear that way; after all, Venat says she will take nothing for granted. The big question to me is why can it result in an AU in one instance but not the other (that we know of)? The idea of there being some kind of fate, raises the question of whether it has some manner of arbiter (7R vibes ahoy!), or creator. Give it a few expansions and the big bad will be Fate. :p

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Give it a few expansions and the big bad will be Fate. :p

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Getting flashbacks to literally fighting an AI called FATE in Chrono Cross.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Just because the WoL and Scions came out unscathed (as usual) didn't make it a feel good ending.

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It seems to be so to the majority of people; the feelgood stuff just falls apart if you actually cared about or got attached to the "losers" of the tale. It's protagonist-centered morality gone to the extreme... reminds me of a Persona game. "Screw you, our lives may suck but we are free from your tyranny of order! (except for me, the self-insert Japanese high school chad who is surrounded by supportive friends and beautiful women who want to jump my bones and succeeds at everything the first or second time)"

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The idea of there being some kind of fate, raises the question of whether it has some manner of arbiter (7R vibes ahoy!), or creator. Give it a few expansions and the big bad will be Fate. :p

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This is my concern as well. It'd be worse than the Meteion reveal. I feel they had the opportunity to go the 'higher power' route with Hydaelyn and Zodiark, but instead chose to make them primals. The only other thing is we know the star somehow doles out souls, but I thought that was either random or had to meet some sort of naturally achieved criteria? It didn't seem implied that there's a consciousness in Etheirys making the decision.

I still don't know what the 12 are supposed to be and, speaking of which, is anyone else good with recognizing voices? I saw someone on Reddit say that Nald'thal is Hythlodaeus & Emet's VAs, but I can't tell with the music and battle noises. I've also seen some say Azeyma is Venat, but comparing the raid to the Hydaleyn trial it doesn't sound like the same VA to me. I have my doubts that even if the 12 do share VAs with other characters that it necessarily means anything.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

The "romance" of time loops is sense of "destiny". Things had to happen this way, because the cosmic order needs them to happen this way, and you have a role in it.

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I don't have an issue with time loops as long as they're mostly free of contradiction, but the rules of time travel are so fickle here that it seems to regularly conform to whatever the plot demands at any given time.

When G'raha traveled back from his own time, all it took for change to occur was him merely being present in the past. In our case however, we travel back not strictly with the intention of changing history, but to observe and investigate Hermes and the role he might've played in all this. Instead, we interact with key figures for a lengthy amount of time, then we proceed to commit the cardinal sin of explaining to them in EXCRUCIATING detail every major historical event that had transpired up to the present day, as well as the roles they would play in our history, and... nothing changes. As it turns out, It was our meddling with time in these moments that led to our version of history and accidentally created a closed loop, but why didn't it happen last time? What did WE do differently?

And of course there's the matter of this loop being an impossibility back in G'raha's timeline as ours only exists cuz of his meddling in ours, unless you buy into the "time is Y shaped" theory that suggests both timelines are canon and feed into one another. Occam's razor is preventing me from doing so myself as its easier to assume a time loop this grandiose wasn't always in the cards as evidenced by how weirdly incompatible it is with Venat's actions.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Instead, she chooses to follow the roadmap to the future the WoL gave her for nonsensical reasons.

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She withholds information that might've saved them, which she has no reason to do unless following the roadmap, but then proceeds to plead with them not to sacrifice lives to Zodiark and instead find another way forward, breaking away from the roadmap. They naturally refuse, and she sunders her children "out of love" while deliberately avoiding Emet who she's fully aware would attempt to undo what she's done by rejoining the shards and effectively killing all the lives she "saved" (Following roadmap), then she goes on to treat the loss of those shards as failures on her part (not following roadmap). Fickle fickle fickle.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Getting flashbacks to literally fighting an AI called FATE in Chrono Cross.



It seems to be so to the majority of people; the feelgood stuff just falls apart if you actually cared about or got attached to the "losers" of the tale. It's protagonist-centered morality gone to the extreme... reminds me of a Persona game. "Screw you, our lives may suck but we are free from your tyranny of order! (except for me, the self-insert Japanese high school chad who is surrounded by supportive friends and beautiful women who want to jump my bones and succeeds at everything the first or second time)"

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Sidenote, I really wish JP devs would avoid using western theology and belief systems in their work, as they often times have a poor grasp of the subject matter.

Add me to the "I thought I was alone and going insane until I saw this thread" club.

I do not wish to retread old ground, but long story short, I was already shaky on everything post Garlemald and Elpis pulled the cord completely, when I realized that it wasn't a flashback and it was a playable area my heart just sank.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

This is my concern as well. It'd be worse than the Meteion reveal. I feel they had the opportunity to go the 'higher power' route with Hydaelyn and Zodiark, but instead chose to make them primals. The only other thing is we know the star somehow doles out souls, but I thought that was either random or had to meet some sort of naturally achieved criteria? It didn't seem implied that there's a consciousness in Etheirys making the decision.

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It kinda reminds me of the Loki TV show: "Hey, free will doesn't exist and all everyone did thus far was meaningless and without real agency, but it's okay, here's Graha eating a burger". I can totally see it happening.

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Originally Posted by Cach

Add me to the "I thought I was alone and going insane until I saw this thread" club.

I do not wish to retread old ground, but long story short, I was already shaky on everything post Garlemald and Elpis pulled the cord completely, when I realized that it wasn't a flashback and it was a playable area my heart just sank.

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I'm fine with it being a playable area, but I almost wish that instead of arriving there via time travel, if Elidibus or someone else had revealed Elpis still exists in the present day in the form of Azys Lla. We head there, and as a callback to 1.0, we use the Echo not to view the past as an outside observer, but to experience it firsthand by stepping into the shoes of Azem.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

She withholds information that might've saved them, which she has no reason to do unless following the roadmap, but then proceeds to plead with them not to sacrifice lives to Zodiark and instead find another way forward, breaking away from the roadmap. They naturally refuse, and she sunders her children "out of love" while deliberately avoiding Emet who she's fully aware would attempt to undo what she's done by rejoining the shards and effectively killing all the lives she "saved" (Following roadmap), then she goes on to treat the loss of those shards as failures on her part (not following roadmap). Fickle fickle fickle.

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Yoshi-P indicated in the Q&A LL that she'd already made up her mind after the summoning of Zodiark that the Ancients were always going to be their own undoing, so it didn't even matter. Everything else was arguably the biggest scam in the history of the world to give her the power to tear it apart so that they didn't risk becoming The Plenty, that 'horrible' future where everything is actually great and people are just bored as opposed to having to deal with endless plague, famine, war, and death.

I know what their intention was, but this story needed to be subjected to some sort of critique beyond Yoshi-P, Ishikawa, and Oda. I find it difficult to believe nobody thought to themselves this makes Venat look like a terrible person and the main antagonist of the series overshadowing even the bringer of the Final Days. I can only hope they learned some valuable lessons from this going into the next "conflict in values" arc.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Yoshi-P indicated in the Q&A LL that she'd already made up her mind after the summoning of Zodiark that the Ancients were always going to be their own undoing, so it didn't even matter. Everything else was arguably the biggest scam in the history of the world to give her the power to tear it apart so that they didn't risk becoming The Plenty, that 'horrible' future where everything is actually great and people are just bored as opposed to having to deal with endless plague, famine, war, and death.

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In the event that the apocalypse ever happens, remind me never to accidentally wish for life to go back to normal, lest god himself descends from the heavens and strikes at me with such ferocity that my very soul is split and I suddenly mutate into a kawaii cat girl lol.

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I know what their intention was, but this story needed to be subjected to some sort of critique beyond Yoshi-P, Ishikawa, and Oda. I find it difficult to believe nobody thought to themselves this makes Venat look like a terrible person and the main antagonist of the series overshadowing even the bringer of the Final Days. I can only hope they learned some valuable lessons from this going into the next "conflict in values" arc.

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Oh but didn't she look so damn cool walking down that blood-soaked path with Answers blasting in the background!? Who wouldn't wanna tattoo" To live is to suffer" across their forehead after seeing that. Jokes aside, I agree. Learning that our path to victory was paved over a mountain of corpses consisting of those who were denied the right to know why they had to die for our sake is never going to sit right with me.

Fundamentally even if you love venat there is a clear dissonance between what even she says and what the narrative portrays her as.

And the devs are in a extremely odd position now where they either have to clarify or make the narrative around her more honest or ignore it. the latter which would make it fester, since it seems the views are not calming down around venat. But that In turn risks turning off people who bought the initial premise on Venat.

They have to very much thread a very awkward needle.

At this point the best thing to do is to simply keep raising awareness of the issues each and every time that there's a new lore Q&A session. Maybe nothing will come of it, but they're clearly willing to go all out with their fan service where the likes of Y'shtola and G'raha are concerned so if we're lucky...we may be able to get a bone thrown our way where the Ancients are concerned.

I hate to say it, but even World of Warcraft and Elder Scrolls Online do a better job at fanservice for those who like the equivalent of the 'Ancients'. There's multiple ruins to explore. Ghosts of the past to interact with. Even the occasional survivor or offshoot of the original 'Ancients'. That's the sort of thing I want to experience in an adventure - not sitting around having a cup of tea with the Scions or helping Y'shtola reunite with Runar.

I guess more than anything, I just wanted more of Endwalker to be devoted to serious storytelling. All of the 'slice of life' stuff could have easily been shifted over to patch content instead when the narrative reached a point where things genuinely slowed down.

I've been thinking about how at the end of things I want my WoL reunited with Emet and Hythlodaeus, I don't care much at all about the Scions. The reason is I don't feel like we're close friends. I'd say at most Alisaie and G'raha are actual friends of the WoL, the rest are just colleagues with whom the WoL inevitably ends up sharing a common goal. The end scene on the ship is the most emotional reaction I've seen out of the Scions and even that wasn't saying much outside of my two exemptions.

I like Thancred and Estinien, but they're brothers-in-arms. If you've ever lost a friendship because you quit sharing activities and discovered there wasn't much of a connection without those common threads, that is how I feel about the Scions. I think for the most part all of them have their own pursuits that once they're no longer aligned with the WoL would drift apart.* I didn't get that impression with Emet and Hythlodaeus, in fact, Emet and Azem frequently didn't align but still cared for and aided one another. Hythlodaeus just loved them both and was along for the ride. :P I see even Alisaie deviating from that as she's been poised to become Alphinaud 2.0. While G'raha is involved with the Students of Baldesion he still seems willing to drop everything where the WoL is concerned. (Side note: I thought we were going to discover G'raha was Hythlodaeus' shard back in ShB.)

* I seriously question if the WoL ever decided to deviate from the Scions' collective morality if they'd still stand with the WoL. I think at the very least there would be a split among them with Urianger for sure throwing us under the bus. (Why is he still allowed to be on my team?!) Now that I think about it, I could totally see a Captain America: Civil War happening. Just for fun, who do you think would stand with the WoL and who against? I'm going with Alisaie, G'raha, and Estinien with / Y'shtola, Urianger, Alphinaud against. Thancred against if it involved Ascians, otherwise he's probably the Black Widow of the bunch.

Edit: Well, now I've gone down the rabbit hole. If the WoL is Captain America, would Emet be Bucky? Hmm.

That's the problem with the Scions; there's no change, and thus no ability to really grow closer with them. The reason there is no change is because there is no conflict. They are always in uniform agreement on essentially every issue and function as yes-men machines to get the plot moving in whatever direction the writers want. They are not characters now, they are vehicles.

There is a reason why people loved the Heavensward light party of the WoL, Estinien, Ysayle, and Alphinaud so much, (Bear with me and try to remember the Alphinaud post ARR that had some true depth to him) and that's because it had conflict. Ysayle was the leader of the heretics, a woman who defied the predominant faith of the culture you've just grown accustomed to, and who you've fought before. Then you have Estinien, a staunch believer in Ishgard's side of history who fights tooth and nail to justify his hatred of dragonkind due to what he's experienced in the past, and it shows in how he acts (who you may have also fought before). This clash leads to genuine arguments and tense moments that the WoL and Alphinaud contribute to as neutral 3rd parties, mediating and urging focus on their larger goal. In time, they all come to bond over their pasts and form a desire to find an agreeable solution, in spite of their disagreements. Even now, people are yearning for the chemistry this group had in their short time together.

I would urge the people who write these characters to remember that having two people stand next to each other and work towards a similar goal does not make them friends. It's growing closer through conflict and resolution, no matter how large or small. No amount of burger outings are going to make me feel something for these people. The closest we've gotten in regard to the scions is Urianger lacking trust, but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that never really goes anywhere meaningful.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

That's the problem with the Scions; there's no change, and thus no ability to really grow closer with them. The reason there is no change is because there is no conflict. They are always in uniform agreement on essentially every issue and function as yes-men machines to get the plot moving in whatever direction the writers want. They are not characters now, they are vehicles.

There is a reason why people loved the Heavensward light party of the WoL, Estinien, Ysayle, and Alphinaud so much, (Bear with me and try to remember the Alphinaud post ARR that had some true depth to him) and that's because it had conflict. Ysayle was the leader of the heretics, a woman who defied the predominant faith of the culture you've just grown accustomed to, and who you've fought before. Then you have Estinien, a staunch believer in Ishgard's side of history who fights tooth and nail to justify his hatred of dragonkind due to what he's experienced in the past, and it shows in how he acts (who you may have also fought before). This clash leads to genuine arguments and tense moments that the WoL and Alphinaud contribute to as neutral 3rd parties, mediating and urging focus on their larger goal. In time, they all come to bond over their pasts and form a desire to find an agreeable solution, in spite of their disagreements. Even now, people are yearning for the chemistry this group had in their short time together.

I would urge the people who write these characters to remember that having two people stand next to each other and work towards a similar goal does not make them friends. It's growing closer through conflict and resolution, no matter how large or small. No amount of burger outings are going to make me feel something for these people. The closest we've gotten in regard to the scions is Urianger lacking trust, but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that never really goes anywhere meaningful.

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It's been said many times before and yes... it's just peculiar when you notice it. The Alliance leaders all seem to get along very well with no heavy disagreements, despite all being from very different cultures and having different values and different needs (no, I don't count the comic relief bickering between No-Wenches? and Jolly Ol' Boy)... and somehow I kind of doubt 6.2+ will do anything in regards to that, even though the main threats are now gone. I would like to be proven wrong... but EW showed propping up and swaddling the player with a feel-good blanket to be the main priority.

Even the Ancients, who had the 'humble and benevolent collective' (or 'omg bad oppressive stagnant hubristic decadent circling the drain dystopia' if you see it that way) thing going on was implied to have disagreements all the time that they worked out through debates with the one we saw in Amaurot as an example, with their society only being totally torn apart post-Final Days.