Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tentatively agreed. It's worth noting though that in the past every MP expenditure had a tanking benefit outside of Carve and Spit (which was a mere margining mechanic). DA-Souleater meant more self-healing, too; DA-Power Slash gave a metric ton of threat; DA-Dark Passenger also added a blind for mitigation; DA-AD was the only way to get it to do any healing; and all else were buffs to your next defensive among Dark Mind or Dark Dance. In that sense, the MP generation on Blood Weapon was almost always also a means of sustain; it was just perhaps out of balance, overly favoring only DA-CnS, -SE, and -AD for AoE sustain.

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Stop please, my heart can't take being reminded of HW DRK and the identity they stole from us...

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Stop please, my heart can't take being reminded of HW DRK and the identity they stole from us...

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Sorry, mate, but it was the obvious example of where/when it made more sense for Blood Weapon to, for sustain-purposes, give MP over HP. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I have to wonder, though... is that so bad? [...]

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It is bad because it makes the class a pain to balance in fights with lot of downtime (like ultimates). It is also bad, and this one is 100% subjective, because it makes your burst less rewarding. With less room to mess up, there comes a lesser sense of accomplishment.

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Nor is there any real synergy other than that among any tank job anymore; [...]

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I'd say only Warrior really fits the bill, and they get a pass IMO because their downtime has the tiniest bit of engagement to it. Managing the resource is slighly harder than managing mana (in the sense that you get way more usages of Edge of Shadow than you need to keep the buff and you don't lose damage in the process by going for it) and you also need to pay attention to Infuriate and Upheaval CD. It is also the de facto "easy tank", so I don't think it should be included in this kind of talk.

My main point is that needing setup and having constraints is a good thing.

Even when you take No Mercy out of the ecuation, Gunbreaker needs to be more particular in the way it enters and executes its burst actions.

GNB needs to pool 3 cartridges to use Gnashing Fang and Double Down. It is not a "you lost damage" case, you just have to in order to not drift them into oblivion. If you can't, you need to start adjusting things around (regardless of my opinion of DD and cartridge management, I believe this is a good thing). It also needs to commit to Gnashing Fang combo once it starts. Also, same as Warrior, Downtime is also a bit more engaging.

PLD is the way it is due to FoF, that's true, but it makes it so you need to pool up some resources for your burst: 3 atonements and the free spell charge. Downtime is also a bit more engaging than DRK's (which is not much, all things considered). That said, I also think PLD is lacking something right now.

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That's not to say I don't agree that it's lackluster and could be improved, but... in what way did you want to see improvement

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Damage buffs are fine because Tanks cannot have burst phases as complicated as DPS classes as they also need to be tanking on top of dealing damage. It is a necessary evil in my eyes (not saying that SE can't do an engaging rotation adecuate for tanks without one, just that it is easier for them to stick to the landing with it).

As to what I would do, well, that's not my job, I'm no game designer. My job as a user is to point out things I either dislike or think that don't work.

That said, I could see adding some sort of extra resource management, making Living Shadow work as a pseudo damage buff by mimicking what you do and/or moving Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain to a 30s CD do a lot for the class. Also taking a oGCD or two away (or turning them into GCDs), using mits as DRK or GNB is painful at times.

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Originally Posted by Roquepo

And I think the biggest offender for this is Living Shadow. The coolest ability DRK gets being a glorified DoT is unforgivable. It should replicate what you do instead of what it currently does. Better be a flavorful damage buff than a fire and forget DoT.

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Can't agree enough here, it basically says what needs to be said.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I have to wonder, though... is that so bad? Alone, you need only not overcap; in buffed parties, you should bank as much as you can without overcapping. But... is that really a problem to, when solo, have more freedom / fewer constraints / less direction than most? Tanks aren't generally something one wants to play solo anyways, and outside of a WHM-or-SGE/SAM-BLM-or-MCHx2 light party, you're going to have some manner of buff that'll oblige those timings in the same way a No Mercy or Fight or Flight would.

Nor is there any real synergy other than that among any tank job anymore; Upheaval and Spirits Within interactions with HP, stances, etc., are all a distant past.

That's not to say I don't agree that it's lackluster and could be improved, but... in what way did you want to see improvement, because it seems only two jobs offer anything more in that regard, and DRK falls only a generic damage buff window away from them?

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I think both sides have good arguments, really. I don't personally find it a bad thing to have fewer constraints, but I would honestly prefer to have a higher skill ceiling that isn't just "dump everything into your burst window and just spam 1-2-3 and use bloodspiller to not overcap otherwise."

At the very least, I would like my downtime to be more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tentatively agreed. It's worth noting though that in the past every MP expenditure had a tanking benefit outside of Carve and Spit (which was a mere margining mechanic). DA-Souleater meant more self-healing, too; DA-Power Slash gave a metric ton of threat; DA-Dark Passenger also added a blind for mitigation; DA-AD was the only way to get it to do any healing; and all else were buffs to your next defensive among Dark Mind or Dark Dance. In that sense, the MP generation on Blood Weapon was almost always also a means of sustain; it was just perhaps out of balance, overly favoring only DA-CnS, -SE, and -AD for AoE sustain.

If, for instance, it returned to that (with Edge/Flood/Shadowbringer healing or adding to current shielding, etc.), would BW's granting MP alone still seem to lack sustain flavor (rather than just seeming a more bankable/timeable means of self-sustain)?

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I think the mp spenditure in itself is ridiculously streamlined compared to what it once was, and would do with some revisioning in order for BW to have any merit of feeling more than just being enough for one more tbn or edge/flood. The problem is, the best way to do this would be to tie some defensives with mp in some way, shape, or form...which is the exact path they strayed from to begin with. The only reason why DA exists as is is because it's currently a damage neutral. This doesn't mean they couldn't expand upon it, but the methods for doing so while continuing that damage neutral path is incredibly limited. Unless they went full throttle and made Dark Arts purely offensive again (albeit not as spam heavy as Stormblood), I'm not sure we'll ever see meaningful mp management. With or without sustain or status effects being added to the abilities it modifies.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

I think both sides have good arguments, really. I don't personally find it a bad thing to have fewer constraints, but I would honestly prefer to have a higher skill ceiling that isn't just "dump everything into your burst window and just spam 1-2-3 and use bloodspiller to not overcap otherwise."

At the very least, I would like my downtime to be more interesting.

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Mostly agreed, but, I have to wonder... are there really even "sides" there, per se?

Is it a matter of "Native Damage Buff Window Good"? If there's a side for that, the only camp opposite it I'd represent for instance, is just that a native damage buff window isn't necessarily good.

That is to say, I don't particularly find all that interesting any damage buff window that doesn't rely of at least potentially active sync even in 100% uptime (or, via a striking dummy). If you could just pick the right GCD and thereafter hit your damage buff on CD (or, on CD +/- using at end of the GCD-gap), I'm not convinced it does anything. Add in a skill that you specifically want to start and stop on, like Goring Blade, and it gets a bit more potentially interesting, but even then, not necessarily. It's contextual, though contextual to one's toolkit.

Greater freedom, on the other hand, offers a higher ceiling for contextual nuance based on the encounter... not that we ever see that exploited in XIV outside of the very rare add phase. More bankable = more (frequently) available deviation between "best" cases and "normal" cases.

Neither seems inherently superior, though I'll admit that when I lack enough encounter-contextual nuance to exploit, I tend to look enviously at kits with a bit more internal nuance; though even the latter requires a fair deal of supportive context, else you more often end up with just finnicky-ness, not nuance.

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I think the mp spenditure in itself is ridiculously streamlined compared to what it once was, and would do with some revisioning in order for BW to have any merit of feeling more than just being enough for one more tbn or edge/flood.

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I could go either way at this point. Either MP could remains just a DarkShinten gauge where you make sure not to overspend for fear of delaying a necessary Senei/TBN, or maybe it could go back to cutting every defensive in two such that you have soft and full uses available to each while making sure not to overspend for fear of losing out on the efficiency of DA-CnS. Neither's perfect; neither is altogether bad. I faintly prefer the latter, but only if it's decently balanced, because I'm tired of pretense of depth essentially just widening performance gaps through otherwise short-lived gaps over unintuitive understandings (e.g., that most of X options are actually awful).

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The only reason why DA exists as is is because it's currently a damage neutral.

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I don't even consider it as existing, so much as just being an unnecessary, fancy throwback name for TBN's "Don't just throw this out on CD / even at the dumbest of times" minor constraint, haha.

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Unless they went full throttle and made Dark Arts purely offensive again (albeit not as spam heavy as Stormblood), I'm not sure we'll ever see meaningful mp management.

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I don't think that would give us "meaningful MP management" even then. In the end, meaningful MP management will essentially be just a matter of rewarding factor-dense understanding of a given fight in a particular situation (with the latter becoming decreasingly relevant as one's party increasingly optimizes / gits gud).

It's a matter of being rewarded for putting the best bets forward / putting your mana where your returns will be highest. That requires those bets being complex ones, which in turn requires there being a lot going on contextually.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Mostly agreed, but, I have to wonder... are there really even "sides" there, per se?

Is it a matter of "Native Damage Buff Window Good"? If there's a side for that, the only camp opposite it I'd represent for instance, is just that a native damage buff window isn't necessarily good.

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I guess what I mean is, I like buff windows, but not when all the damage is packed into that one single burst window, because some of that damage could be more spread to make the job leagues more interesting to play continuously. Which I suppose is a common sentiment with the whole 2-minute meta debacle.

Though it's more how it's actually designed, is why I can still go back and play Reaper and enjoy it. The downtime is infinitely more enjoyable for me than most jobs in the game. The abilities are all satisfying to press, even the main combo, and there's more than just the 1-2-3 to use thanks to Soul Slice and Soul Scythe.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I could go either way at this point. Either MP could remains just a DarkShinten gauge where you make sure not to overspend for fear of delaying a necessary Senei/TBN, or maybe it could go back to cutting every defensive in two such that you have soft and full uses available to each while making sure not to overspend for fear of losing out on the efficiency of DA-CnS. Neither's perfect; neither is altogether bad. I faintly prefer the latter, but only if it's decently balanced, because I'm tired of pretense of depth essentially just widening performance gaps through otherwise short-lived gaps over unintuitive understandings (e.g., that most of X options are actually awful).

I don't think that would give us "meaningful MP management" even then. In the end, meaningful MP management will essentially be just a matter of rewarding factor-dense understanding of a given fight in a particular situation (with the latter becoming decreasingly relevant as one's party increasingly optimizes / gits gud).

It's a matter of being rewarded for putting the best bets forward / putting your mana where your returns will be highest. That requires those bets being complex ones, which in turn requires there being a lot going on contextually.

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That's the issue, though. unless they bring back Dark Arts as an actual ability that amplifies both offensives and defensives, MP will remain one side or the other, and the only way I see them doing this is if Dark Arts is toggleable like Eukrasia without a mana cost, since that would mean putting mp somewhere else that isn't damage. Which begs the question...how would that actually be able to be accomplished if DA were to be on a mana cost? They would obviously look for a way to refund such mp usage, but would that, then, remove any meaning behind it in the first place?

Something that comes to mind...is that Bloodspiller and Quietus could be used to regenerate such mp, and blood weapon could be smacked down to a 40s cooldown like it used to be. Using Dark Arts could give us..idk, 10-20 gauge per use?


On an entirely different thought, could our Blood Gauge and mp usage fuel our Darkside?

What I mean is, and this is basically ripped from reaper, we get a second meter, and it's our Darkside. When this meter fills, we get to use Living Shadow. This would obviously mean that it merges with us, empowers us, that whole bit we've discussed many times over. How often this would happen is up for debate (though I expect it would be either a 60s, 90s, or 120s thing). This would mean that the Blood Gauge has more importance than just being a beast gauge in disguise. Though, this does make it more of a Soul/Shroud gauge copy... I would sooner bring back DA as it was the core of DRK, but it's unclear what they would do with it that isn't just over-glorifying the tbn proc.

You could make a case for revising DRK's resource system, based on the fact that MP regenerates during periods of forced downtime while most gauges do not.

Dark Arts was fine as a concept but its principle problem was around the frequency of use. For it to have any meaning over the current system, you need to be able to use it to situationally choose between two equivalently useful effects (i.e. physical and magical defense). I'm always wary about stances in this game, given how much it has historically struggled with registering stance changes.

What I think they can do to bring back DA and rework DRK:

Remove TBN's MP cost. Shattering TBN gives you a regen, an unshattered TBN heals you for whatever HP was left in the shield.
Bring back DA and give it the 3K MP cost. It buffs the next GCD by a percentage (10% maybe?).
Exchange Flood and Abyssal Drain so AD has the MP cost and Flood is linked to Carve and Spit.
AD gets a bigger cure potency, but gives no darkside.
Make Bloodspiller and Quietus cost Darkside duration to use (15s worth).
Delirium allows the use of Bloodspiller and Quietus without Darkside cost. It also gives a buff allowing use of Shadowbringer for the next 30s.
Living Shadow copies the next 3-5 GCDs the DRK uses at some % potency (so it's a gain, but not overwhelmingly so).

What this does is make Darkside duration another resource we're juggling. TBN is no longer attached to our damage but is still worth breaking. Our MP pool becomes used in one of 3 offensive ways, Edge for Darkside, DA for the buffed attacks, and AD for AoE damage with a heal. This change makes MP an actual resource we have to think about using instead of spamming Edge/DA on cooldown. This also links Shadowbringer to our kit instead of it being unlinked to anything, and improves the feel of Living Shadow.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You could make a case for revising DRK's resource system, based on the fact that MP regenerates during periods of forced downtime while most gauges do not.

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You know I hear this one a lot, and I have to say anyone who thinks DRK's dominance is coming from the fact that it regenerates mp during downtime doesn't really understand the game. For reference, this downtime mechanic has to be 45 seconds long for it to be a single use of Edge or TBN.
It has way more to do with the entire 2m Burst Meta, and how this game over-rewards Crit/DirectHit.

DRK's resource recovery in downtime refers far more to it having 5+ OGCDs all coming off cool down within those downtime mechanics, and these fights being built around the 2m window, which effectively skip DRK's weakest moments. (The 40 seconds of 123 spam after a burst window).

I don't disagree that something needs to change about this, but removing DRK's use of MP is probably the dumbest thing you could do with the job seeing as compared to its other two resources, MP is the only one that has a semblance of a thought behind it.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

I guess what I mean is, I like buff windows, but not when all the damage is packed into that one single burst window, because some of that damage could be more spread to make the job leagues more interesting to play continuously. Which I suppose is a common sentiment with the whole 2-minute meta debacle.

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Fair enough. And certainly agreed on the ultra-condensed damage/apm (or, rather the consequent relative scarcity of gameplay between those bursts) not being a good thing.

My point, though, was more that I don't really see much difference between having a damage window or not... if it doesn't constitute any sort of shifting means of optimization or management.

Both freedom and constraints have their potential advantages (even if freedom is currently rarely rewarded in this game due to the staleness of fight design regarding adds and/or brief but consequential DPS checks), with constraints also having plenty of ways to go as wrong as having, well, nothing, so I'm kind of indifferent to having a FoF/NM-equivalent on DRK to force banking even in situations without raid buffs or vulnerability windows / short DPS checks.

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Though it's more how it's actually designed, is why I can still go back and play Reaper and enjoy it. The downtime is infinitely more enjoyable for me than most jobs in the game.

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Makes sense. Until Endwalker, Samurai was that for me. And Monk still mostly is. (If going back as far as Stormblood, then you can add MCH, or as far back as HW, then also DRK, DRG, NIN, BRD, etc., if that's any indication of my perception on certain trends.)

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That's the issue, though. unless they bring back Dark Arts as an actual ability that amplifies both offensives and defensives, MP will remain one side or the other

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Is that such a bad thing? Like, I obviously get the appeal of gauging situations to gamble on what the best investment will be for ultimately consequent rDPS, and in having a larger range of options therein (from pure defensive to pure offensive), but as it stands, would it be so bad for MP to just be a means of making DRK's apm/dps that much more flexible (offensive), or having exceedingly granular control over its sustain (defensive)?

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That's the issue, though. unless they bring back Dark Arts as an actual ability that amplifies both offensives and defensives, MP will remain one side or the other, and the only way I see them doing this is if Dark Arts is toggleable like Eukrasia without a mana cost, since that would mean putting mp somewhere else that isn't damage. Which begs the question...how would that actually be able to be accomplished if DA were to be on a mana cost? They would obviously look for a way to refund such mp usage, but would that, then, remove any meaning behind it in the first place?

Something that comes to mind...is that Bloodspiller and Quietus could be used to regenerate such mp, and blood weapon could be smacked down to a 40s cooldown like it used to be. Using Dark Arts could give us..idk, 10-20 gauge per use?

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I... can't really say I see the point in worrying so much about the sources of MP before you've figured out what purpose in playflow DA is even supposed to serve?

If you reintroduce Dark Arts as an MP spender capable of offensive value, too, it makes little to no sense to leave Edge and Flood, just due to the sheer button-inefficiency of it.

If you then want more animations, moreover, that can still be accomplished just by replacing the single buffing action with any of various follow-up actions determined by one's most recent action, each with their own animation (SE->DA looks like Scourge and adds a DoT; CnS->DA launches forward a second self in a whirling flurry of shadowy blades; Syphon->DA steals buffs from nearby enemies; TNB->DA explodes the shield for damage based its damage absorbed; etc., etc.).

You don't even have to let overrides be especially a problem, as you can have cooldowns use their DA form by just hitting that same button again while it's on cooldown (and take a less directly/flatly augmentative approach as not to seem punishing for having lost the half-second in the skill's safety period to prevent double-hits), while just the weaponskills/spells would use the discrete DA button.

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On an entirely different thought, could our Blood Gauge and mp usage fuel our Darkside?

What I mean is, and this is basically ripped from reaper, we get a second meter, and it's our Darkside. When this meter fills, we get to use Living Shadow.

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I wouldn't be opposed, but I also don't see what difference it'd make apart from our not having it available on pull and making it punish downtime more?

If anything, I'd like to see such a gauge be used on our otherwise CDs for which any flexibility would otherwise just add to the gap between apm peaks and lulls, such as Shadowbringer and maybe one other skill that could interestingly compete with it, but even that doesn't seem worthwhile to me.


:: Edit: If I fail to respond, it's simply because I let my sub expire; been a bit too busy for MMOs in general of late, and am probably more likely to renew WoW for M+ and the occasional Battleground than to renew FFXIV atm. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Is that such a bad thing? Like, I obviously get the appeal of gauging situations to gamble on what the best investment will be for ultimately consequent rDPS, and in having a larger range of options therein (from pure defensive to pure offensive), but as it stands, would it be so bad for MP to just be a means of making DRK's apm/dps that much more flexible (offensive), or having exceedingly granular control over its sustain (defensive)?

If you reintroduce Dark Arts as an MP spender capable of offensive value, too, it makes little to no sense to leave Edge and Flood, just due to the sheer button-inefficiency of it.

If you then want more animations, moreover, that can still be accomplished just by replacing the single buffing action with any of various follow-up actions determined by one's most recent action, each with their own animation (SE->DA looks like Scourge and adds a DoT; CnS->DA launches forward a second self in a whirling flurry of shadowy blades; Syphon->DA steals buffs from nearby enemies; TNB->DA explodes the shield for damage based its damage absorbed; etc., etc.).

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Not at all, if I had the choice Dark Arts would be purely offensive and ideally MP usage and its regeneration on DRK would be revamped for more a bit more frequent usage (ideally, enough to use one or two DA during filler but high enough to burst, given the current burst-meta). To tack onto this, I would prefer to axe edge and flood in place for bringing back old GCD's through Dark Arts.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I wouldn't be opposed, but I also don't see what difference it'd make apart from our not having it available on pull and making it punish downtime more?

If anything, I'd like to see such a gauge be used on our otherwise CDs for which any flexibility would otherwise just add to the gap between apm peaks and lulls, such as Shadowbringer and maybe one other skill that could interestingly compete with it, but even that doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

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I neglected to mention this, but ideally there would be an ability or method otherwise to use it on pull. That would mean there would be at least 2 per every 2-minute depending on the gauge cap (although, I don't see them making the cap 50 instead of 100 because of over-capping)

I wonder what DRK players' thoughts would be if the devs scrapped Plunge altogether and gained a movement tool that wasn't tied to damage, like Ingress/Egress? I feel like tanks are well behind the curve when it comes to mobility tools.

Variety in animation
Please, if you add skills that you can throw 3 times or more in a row, they may be different animations or attack moves, for example the WAR, PLD, DRK have an ability that can be repeated several times it would be good if they had at least two or three animation variations so that a skill is not so boring thanks.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I wonder what DRK players' thoughts would be if the devs scrapped Plunge altogether and gained a movement tool that wasn't tied to damage, like Ingress/Egress? I feel like tanks are well behind the curve when it comes to mobility tools.

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I don't mind gap closers having damage tied to them, I do mind when it becomes a "use in your rotation" otherwise you lose overall dps. The simple fix would be to just tie them to the GCD, since at that point, they would be specifically used as a gap closer. It goes without saying that this change ideally would not cancel where you currently are in your combo.

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Originally Posted by Griphyt

Variety in animation
Please, if you add skills that you can throw 3 times or more in a row, they may be different animations or attack moves, for example the WAR, PLD, DRK have an ability that can be repeated several times it would be good if they had at least two or three animation variations so that a skill is not so boring thanks.

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Honestly, Paladin gets a pass for me simply because of the confiteor combo.

Fell Cleave is leagues more satisfying than Bloodspiller ever was, even before the change to spam it until we're beyond sick of it. WAR also gets Primal Rend. It kinda fits WAR's identity.

DRK, on the other hand, has plenty of animations they removed that everyone loved that they could use for multiple purposes, so they have options.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I wonder what DRK players' thoughts would be if the devs scrapped Plunge altogether and gained a movement tool that wasn't tied to damage, like Ingress/Egress? I feel like tanks are well behind the curve when it comes to mobility tools.

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I would like for them to remove the damage from plunge and change the unmend trait. They can put that dps into shadowbringer or bloodspiller.

I'd only be fine with it if DRK got some other 2x charge 30s oGCD.

Theres already enough downtime after a burst window as it is.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I'd only be fine with it if DRK got some other 2x charge 30s oGCD.

Theres already enough downtime after a burst window as it is.

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Agree, but I'd say it needs something on a 30s CD regardless. Plunge doesn't really help the downtime feel any less boring

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I wonder what DRK players' thoughts would be if the devs scrapped Plunge altogether and gained a movement tool that wasn't tied to damage, like Ingress/Egress? I feel like tanks are well behind the curve when it comes to mobility tools.

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I would take it a step further and make tank gap closers role actions at 2 charges with no dmg in addition to Backstep from Eureka/Bozja. It would free up that slot for tanks and also give them access to a disengage that all other melees have (even some casters have it like RDM). They can even combine it so that the dash procs the backstep similar to how RPR works. That way you get a dash and the option to disengage all in one button to help with button bloat. You can even do some shenanigans in dungeon pulls where you dash to a mob, turn around, backstep to move closer to next mobs, then dash towards them and backstep again in the same way some DRG use elusive jump as a "gap closer".

Currently, gap closers are only used as ogcds fillers and rarely used for their "gap closing" ever since they increased the boss hit box size to be accessible at all times. Gap closers have more or less become redundant and its just another ogcd now. The only way I would keep gap closers as they are is if the savage version of the fight has a smaller hit box that is reflective of the boss' actual size but that would require them to leave the ranged tax on but I digress.

Gap closing in melee range just looks dumb to me as you are literally dashing in place.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I would take it a step further and make tank gap closers role actions at 2 charges with no dmg in addition to Backstep from Eureka/Bozja. It would free up that slot for tanks and also give them access to a disengage that all other melees have (even some casters have it like RDM). They can even combine it so that the dash procs the backstep similar to how RPR works.

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I honestly dislike this idea. Not necessarily because I am against something being done with gap closers on tanks, you are right that they are basically just a bit of extra potency in burst right now.

My opposition to this is more fundamental, simply because role actions have no class identity in their either function or visuals. If I could choose, I would make individual tank up closers more unique rather than do what you suggest. We could have for example, like the post you were replying to suggested, directional dash on Dark Knight, Paladin’s intervention could be targettable at allies and enemies, and if used on ally it could make Paladin take 50% of the target's next hit in their stead, and just move you to enemy if used on a hostile target. Then warrior could have a ground target leap, and gunbreaker keeps potency attack as theirs.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I'd only be fine with it if DRK got some other 2x charge 30s oGCD.

Theres already enough downtime after a burst window as it is.

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This is why I want Salted Earth to have 45s CD. It wouldn't affect burst, since it would still only align in opener and then at 6th minute, but you would periodically get another set of 2 actions outside of burst.

Ngl I feel like Warrior did the gapcloser conundrum the best before Endwalker with Onslaught being close to if not straight up damage neutral vs standard Fell Cleave usage.

Gapclosers having damage isn't a bad thing, but being completely unrestricted is another issue. Which is why I don't understand why they made Onslaught simply Plunge copy #3 instead of making system changes to make the other gapclosers more like Onslaught. (side rant, it made Bozja's Lost Blood Rage complete garbage with that change)

Or giving gapclosers an effect like "can't be enhanced by damage boosting effects", which would be "boring" but would solve the necessity of pressing them in buff windows for optimal play without sacrificing the damage portion of it.

Oh, I just had an exceedingly stupid idea.

Enhanced Unmend II
Salt and Darkness (or could be plunge) grants Unravel, enhancing next unmend
Unraveling unmend potency - 500
Generates 20 blood and 600 mp

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Originally Posted by Vallerie

Oh, I just had an exceedingly stupid idea.

Enhanced Unmend II
Salt and Darkness (or could be plunge) grants Unravel, enhancing next unmend
Unraveling unmend potency - 500
Generates 20 blood and 600 mp

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At least that way I'd be able to deal with early pullers in hunts. Do actually want.

I don't actually hate Enhanced Unmend, but it is baffling that they made this trait in the same expansion where they decided that all bosses needed arena wide hitboxes and melee downtime should never happen.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I don't actually hate Enhanced Unmend, but it is baffling that they made this trait in the same expansion where they decided that all bosses needed arena wide hitboxes and melee downtime should never happen.

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They probably still think that tanks will just stand in Narnia for mechanics, spamming their ranged attack, for "safety" or something.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I don't actually hate Enhanced Unmend, but it is baffling that they made this trait in the same expansion where they decided that all bosses needed arena wide hitboxes and melee downtime should never happen.

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Because they don't know what to do with DRK, they never have, same with SCH and SMN. That's why you see them constantly try to remove things from SCH just to get massive pushback, and why SMN keeps changing. From what I heard the original creator of ARR/HW SCH, SMN, and DRK left the dev team in HW...which does actually coincide with when they started making questionable decisions with the jobs.

Pushback occurs whenever players think that the job differs significantly from the way that it 'ought' to work. Jobs that play differently from their previous series incarnations will get pushback. How many times since Heavensward have we seen requests to change DRK to use HP as a resource, or use a scythe, or to be changed into a DPS job? Likewise, jobs that play significantly differently from their previous reworks will get pushback as well. Which is a catch-22 situation, as the entire point of a rework is to change how the job plays. Yet you will invariably have divisions within the playerbase each demanding that the job play closer to various designs (FFXI DRK, 3.x DRK, 4.x DRK, and 5.x DRK). Ideally you just try your best to capture the spirit of various iterations while accepting that nobody will be entirely satisfied.

The broader issue with SCH is that SCH has been a very powerful job for the majority of this game's history. Much like WAR, there were a lot of advantages that it was grandfathered into in 2.x that set it up to dominate for expansions to come. Naturally, the dev team have systematically been curtailing these jobs' power to bring them in line with the rest, but it has taken them the better part of several expansions to do so, with their respective playerbases fighting tooth and nail to cling to those advantages. The majority of job nerfs, as you may have noticed, deliberately happen silently between expansions when players haven't been able to test how the math will work out. Everything outside of that is 'upward balance' to keep everyone happy. I personally think it's much too polite of an approach, and sometimes you just have to be aggressive with balance changes to ensure that there's a level playing field for all jobs. I'm glad that we're starting to see more of that now.

Enhanced Unmend has always been an odd trait. Historically, it used to remove the MP cost on your next Unleash, and it was equally strange back then. But I think mobility actions on tanks have needed a second look for a long time now.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Pushback occurs whenever players think that the job differs significantly from the way that it 'ought' to work. Jobs that play differently from their previous series incarnations will get pushback. How many times since Heavensward have we seen requests to change DRK to use HP as a resource, or use a scythe, or to be changed into a DPS job? Likewise, jobs that play significantly differently from their previous reworks will get pushback as well. Which is a catch-22 situation, as the entire point of a rework is to change how the job plays. Yet you will invariably have divisions within the playerbase each demanding that the job play closer to various designs (FFXI DRK, 3.x DRK, 4.x DRK, and 5.x DRK). Ideally you just try your best to capture the spirit of various iterations while accepting that nobody will be entirely satisfied.

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Pushback also happens when design decisions make no sense whatsoever and end up causing a job to fall massively behind others. Look back at Stormblood SCH, Adlo and Succor had their MP costs increased back then to where SCH throwing out shields was a huge hit to their MP. The MP heal from Aetherflow was also cut in half to 10%, and was LESS than the cost of a single Adlo, causing SCH to have serious MP issues. There was massive pushback until they finally lowered the MP costs on Adlo and Succor in patch 4.1.

SCH was mandatory throughout Heavensward. SCH had very deliberate nerfs during the transition period going in to Stormblood so that players would actually get to see WHM/AST comps being used in content. The SCH playerbase pushed back hard because they wanted their stuff back. SCH was then made mandatory for the rest of Stormblood. The end solution, which we've seen this expansion, was to simply turn SCH into its own healing subrole and create job alternatives to it, splitting that playerbase. Heavensward and Stormblood were some of the worst periods in the game for job balance because of how grossly overpowered the toolkits of some of these jobs were. It was incredibly difficult for the rest of us to push for the status quo to actually change to something more equitable for all, simply because when a job becomes that dominant, it also becomes incredibly popular and builds a strong following that resists any change.

There's no defense to excuse how those jobs were tuned compared to their counterparts.

Part of the problem with that lies in how they set up AST. From how things went in HW, it was clearly obvious to ANYBODY who healed or paid attention that the problem with AST was the Sects, they were nigh impossible to balance. Make Nocturnal too strong, and nobody will take SCH. Make Diurnal too strong, and nobody will take WHM. We saw that happen multiple times in HW AND SB, and I'm still surprised it took them until EW to actually deal with that damned problem, when they could have dealt with it back in SB.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

SCH was mandatory throughout Heavensward. SCH had very deliberate nerfs during the transition period going in to Stormblood so that players would actually get to see WHM/AST comps being used in content. The SCH playerbase pushed back hard because they wanted their stuff back. SCH was then made mandatory for the rest of Stormblood. The end solution, which we've seen this expansion, was to simply turn SCH into its own healing subrole and create job alternatives to it, splitting that playerbase. Heavensward and Stormblood were some of the worst periods in the game for job balance because of how grossly overpowered the toolkits of some of these jobs were. It was incredibly difficult for the rest of us to push for the status quo to actually change to something more equitable for all, simply because when a job becomes that dominant, it also becomes incredibly popular and builds a strong following that resists any change.

There's no defense to excuse how those jobs were tuned compared to their counterparts.

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I think the biggest problem was that they couldn’t balance noc astro even if their life’s would depend on it. It was so bad in comparison to sch that you really didn’t had much choice in the shield department. The only choice was either astro or whm depending on what job was less bad.

That was the excuse used for WAR as well, back in Heavensward. That problem wasn't WAR being too powerful, oh no, the problem was that PLD and DRK were too weak.

The crux of the issue actually went back to ARR, and the fact that the game only launched with two tanks and two healers. When there's more jobs present, you're obliged to spread out different unique mechanics across several jobs, like pet based healing, shields, aetherflow's instant cast effects, and so on. But they just put out the standard 'vanilla healer' you see in every game, and the second job was 'everything else'. The same is true for tanks as well. So when they tried to add in a third, there was no design space to expand out additional jobs in. DPS never really suffered from this problem as a role because there were so many more jobs at launch, setting aside the fact that BRD was mandatory for its resource buffs and a subrole had to be created around it to make it work in the long run.

The biggest problem is resistance to change from the playerbase. The game would be very different had all the currently existing jobs been present for the same amount of time. But adding new jobs upsets the entire balance, especially when you have fewer jobs to start with, and you sometimes have to make radical changes to keep everything balanced. But the dev team seemed to be overly worried about hurting anyone's feelings, which lead to them backtracking on much needed balance changes and letting some jobs remain unchecked for way too long.

It ironic given how WAR and DRK swapped places. DRK is currently king, not because it is overly powerful but because everything is catered to it. Nearly all raidwides is magic and some fights are only magic, heavy mitigation meta means shields > HoTs, 2 min meta favors heavy ogcd jobs that can dump all their cds within a small burst window, and all your cds line up perfectly with that regardless of order.

WAR was good in HW for the exact same reasons of fitting in perfectly with the meta of high dps in addition to being totally stacked. Though I still say it was a touch too strong when you consider that no job in the history of this game had a cd that increased your ATK power by 50% (later to nerfed down to 20% before getting reworked entirely). We're not talking physical, magical, crit, direct hit or potency. Literally 1.5 of your current ATK power stat.

I also feel like we may be hitting a breaking point in where we might need to stop introducing jobs and just focus on refining the ones we have. A more horizontal progression with job design. Personally I would like to see them start with weapon design. Give PLD a spear for one of the raid weapons. If the playerbase really is as casual as I think it is then glamour options is an easy way of softening the blow. Sure PLD might be unfun for some ppl but hey you get a spear. Likewise with WAR and hammers.

I feel like WAR's fall from grace has been entirely 6.2 onward. It was definately the golden standard for PF tanking for all of Asphodelos, to the point where even early on WAR could cycle between Holmgang and Kitchen Sinking to effectively solo tank p1 and p2. I cant help but think someone at SE saw that and got mad enough to specifically design the tank busters to be swaps with bleeds to specifically counter WAR cheese. I honestly think they went too far with how much bleed hurts WAR's self regen gimmick, its not unbeatable but it does make the job feel pretty bad. On the exact opposite side, Abyssos has shown just how powerful DRK having 3 unique 60s Mitigations on top of TBN really is.

Alternating Dark Mind, Oblation with Rampart and Shadow Wall gives DRK a defensive edge that I think only post rework PLD can really match now.

Who knows maybe they'll get mad at DRK for Abyssos and every raidwide and tank buster in the final tier will be physical.

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Originally Posted by Vallerie

This is why I want Salted Earth to have 45s CD. It wouldn't affect burst, since it would still only align in opener and then at 6th minute, but you would periodically get another set of 2 actions outside of burst.

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I'd do that and knock 20 seconds off Blood Weapon's CD. BW would still line up with 2-mins but also give one more thing to keep track of during downtime. DRK would need still more things changed to make downtime more interesting, but it would be a good first start they could do even now (they won't mid-expansion but hypothetically they could).

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I feel like WAR's fall from grace has been entirely 6.2 onward. It was definately the golden standard for PF tanking for all of Asphodelos, to the point where even early on WAR could cycle between Holmgang and Kitchen Sinking to effectively solo tank p1 and p2. I cant help but think someone at SE saw that and got mad enough to specifically design the tank busters to be swaps with bleeds to specifically counter WAR cheese. I honestly think they went too far with how much bleed hurts WAR's self regen gimmick, its not unbeatable but it does make the job feel pretty bad. On the exact opposite side, Abyssos has shown just how powerful DRK having 3 unique 60s Mitigations on top of TBN really is.

Alternating Dark Mind, Oblation with Rampart and Shadow Wall gives DRK a defensive edge that I think only post rework PLD can really match now.

Who knows maybe they'll get mad at DRK for Abyssos and every raidwide and tank buster in the final tier will be physical.

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While also giving PLD Light Mind, which reduces physical damage taken by 20%.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I feel like WAR's fall from grace has been entirely 6.2 onward. It was definately the golden standard for PF tanking for all of Asphodelos, to the point where even early on WAR could cycle between Holmgang and Kitchen Sinking to effectively solo tank p1 and p2. I cant help but think someone at SE saw that and got mad enough to specifically design the tank busters to be swaps with bleeds to specifically counter WAR cheese. I honestly think they went too far with how much bleed hurts WAR's self regen gimmick, its not unbeatable but it does make the job feel pretty bad. On the exact opposite side, Abyssos has shown just how powerful DRK having 3 unique 60s Mitigations on top of TBN really is.

Alternating Dark Mind, Oblation with Rampart and Shadow Wall gives DRK a defensive edge that I think only post rework PLD can really match now.

Who knows maybe they'll get mad at DRK for Abyssos and every raidwide and tank buster in the final tier will be physical.

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WAR's been doing that since SB, when holmgang was a 3 min cd, only getting nerfed to 4 mins last expansion. The increase to duration is okay but when you realize that tank busters by their design is only one hit (most of the time) duration is only additive but not a benefit when compared to being on a shorter cd. Even then, if you make tankbusters appear every 2 mins WAR is still going to rotate between holm and cds swaps. It's one of the reasons why I think tankbusters should be more frequent than it currently is now. In addition to being varied, i.e. single hit, multi stack, multi hit, etc.

If they wanted WAR to match TBN in terms of defensives they only need to reduce ToB to 60 secs so it is up every time a tank busters is there similar to TBN.

They should change Provoke to be like, 5-10s CD, that way A: they make it more casual-friendly (provoked the wrong mob? less lockout til your next chance to provoke the right mob), and B: it would allow them to have more-often tankswaps. Imagine a fight where they have a WOW style 'every autoattack gives a stack of 10% vuln', and you have to keep swapping to mitigate how many stacks you have, with stuff like 'purposely hold the boss for a bit longer, so when your cotank takes it, their stack count isnt as high when the tankbuster casts'

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

They should change Provoke to be like, 5-10s CD, that way A: they make it more casual-friendly (provoked the wrong mob? less lockout til your next chance to provoke the right mob), and B: it would allow them to have more-often tankswaps. Imagine a fight where they have a WOW style 'every autoattack gives a stack of 10% vuln', and you have to keep swapping to mitigate how many stacks you have, with stuff like 'purposely hold the boss for a bit longer, so when your cotank takes it, their stack count isnt as high when the tankbuster casts'

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Agreed, it would make things leagues more interesting on the actual tanking aspect.

Although, I'm partial to making tankbusters more frequent across the board. They are pitifully underwhelming in normal mode content when we have a surplus of cooldowns to use for them.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Although, I'm partial to making tankbusters more frequent across the board. They are pitifully underwhelming in normal mode content when we have a surplus of cooldowns to use for them.

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With the shift to every tank having some short ~25s CD Super Mitigation tool, the game really doesn't teach you how to use it optimally at all. I think it be good to teach players earlier on by increasing the need for tanks to actually use their mitigations.

Tank is honestly all over the place in terms of how difficult or easy it can be based on the content being run its honestly a bit crazy.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

WAR's been doing that since SB, when holmgang was a 3 min cd, only getting nerfed to 4 mins last expansion. The increase to duration is okay but when you realize that tank busters by their design is only one hit (most of the time) duration is only additive but not a benefit when compared to being on a shorter cd. Even then, if you make tankbusters appear every 2 mins WAR is still going to rotate between holm and cds swaps. It's one of the reasons why I think tankbusters should be more frequent than it currently is now. In addition to being varied, i.e. single hit, multi stack, multi hit, etc.

If they wanted WAR to match TBN in terms of defensives they only need to reduce ToB to 60 secs so it is up every time a tank busters is there similar to TBN.

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Busters being more varied would already help Warrior's kit as it is right now, it was completely fine in Asphodelos.
If they kept the bleed busters on everything however I don't think making ToB a 60 second cooldown would change much, it's just not good against the current tier's tank damage.


What would I rather have, 20% max HP (and a heal that is barely even noticeable when 1 bleed tick deals as much damage) that run out before the DoT has even finished ticking? Or 20% flat mitigation on the buster, leading to the DoT doing less total damage overall?