What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi

My problem with the time travel was that it was so under used as a plot point that it mostly only served as fan service.

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Without a doubt fan service had a huge part to do with it. Emet Selch is one of the franchise's most popular characters, and it doesn't surprise me at all that SE sought a way to give him more screen time.

Was listening to Locus and other earlier music from XIV earlier. Shiva theme, Tsukuyomi theme, Sephirot theme etc.

It's amazing how the lyrics relate to what became the overarching story, but it also made me realize we got robbed of them presenting a lot of parallels directly between Venat/Ysayle/Yotsuyu.

Ysayle does have some similarities. Betrayed her civilization/society for the wrong reasons after getting a vision. Adapts and changes her weapon by changing its shape. Mantles Shiva through a ritual given to her by the Zodiark faction of the Ascians (Hydaelyn is a stolen ritual, Shiva is a gifted one).

Yotsuyu has some similarities too. Mantles a primal through a ritual. Primal is related to the moon, which apparently Hydaelyn reshaped at a minimum. Has a story involving amnesia.

They could have written more parallels in for Venat between her and these predecessor characters, as seems to have been the intent at one time or another. We had a sort of nothingburger that many thought would be some form of foreshadowing when Ryne wished to mantle Shiva so earnestly in Eden, her Minfilia bestowed Hydaelyn powers causing her to feel super in tune with Ysayle's story.

If they'd taken the route many think they should have taken and had Venat's memory wiped by Kairos, they could have looped in our experience with Tsuyu vs. Yotsuyu, and played it for more pity points on top of having The Sundering be an unwittingly done action rather than an intentional one.

But as it stands now, there's just the passing similarities and no real tie ins. Another example of how Endwalker was fumbled.

As for the other songs and how they could relate... Well, when you look at Sephirot's theme's lyrics it sounds almost like an Ascian talking about Hydaelyn. When you listen to Locus, it almost sounds like Alexander had knowledge of the actual, unnatural state of The Source.

There was so much potential for looping back in those old stories and threads, but we didn't get any of that. I hope some day they break from their formula and take their time to cook. The ingredients are all there, but they're just trying to make Menu Item #5 instead of the five course meal we're expecting.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I remember laughing out loud in the voice chat when "Kairos" happened.

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I had a similar feeling. When the heroes had the bad guy dead to rights and he whipped out the time machine from nowhere, I sighed and my engagement fell. There wasn't realism anymore. The writers were going to bend over backwards to keep the story going whether it made sense or not. It reminded me of that scene towards the end of the first season of Code Geass when the rebels and the empire have reached an amicable solution, but then the writers whip out an inane contrivance to ruin the peace and keep the story going for the sake of it. It becomes hard to care whatever is going on anymore since it doesn't matter.

The whole Elpis episode boils down to here's Hermes and Meteion, justifying Venat's actions to herself and Emet (+ Hythlo) fan service. That whole thing could have really been an echo flashback with no down sides. Sure, pandemonium would have been written in a different palce (or just wholly in Sharlayan). I admit I really like that "has your journey been good"-scene, but even that would have worked before or after fighting her. That scene didn't really answer the question but did it need to, really?

btw, I'm not really taking a stance on the whole did Venat do the right thing debate. I just want to point out that Venat already had all the reasons to do what she did because she met the wol in the past. She knew there was at least one plan that works.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I had a similar feeling. When the heroes had the bad guy dead to rights and he whipped out the time machine from nowhere, I sighed and my engagement fell. There wasn't realism anymore. The writers were going to bend over backwards to keep the story going whether it made sense or not. It reminded me of that scene towards the end of the first season of Code Geass when the rebels and the empire have reached an amicable solution, but then the writers whip out an inane contrivance to ruin the peace and keep the story going for the sake of it. It becomes hard to care whatever is going on anymore since it doesn't matter.

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It is passing strange that Kairos just happened to be at the very top of the research station, or that its use could just have it pop out at a moment's notice. Almost no information on it or how it works, either, other than the direct exposition about it nuking memories from people or an area. Plot Contrivance Ultimate, most assuredly.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It is passing strange that Kairos just happened to be at the very top of the research station, or that its use could just have it pop out at a moment's notice. Almost no information on it or how it works, either, other than the direct exposition about it nuking memories from people or an area. Plot Contrivance Ultimate, most assuredly.

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But he made the damn thing. Is it really out of the realm of possibility that he'd have that level of control over it, or did Ancient magicks only just become overpowered at that moment?

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It is passing strange that Kairos just happened to be at the very top of the research station, or that its use could just have it pop out at a moment's notice. Almost no information on it or how it works, either, other than the direct exposition about it nuking memories from people or an area. Plot Contrivance Ultimate, most assuredly.

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Oh no. The people with the power to CREATE ANYTHING OUT OF THIN AIR can create things out of thin air.

I love how the "counter" argument does nothing to actually counter how contrived it's use was.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I love how the "counter" argument does nothing to actually counter how contrived it's use was.

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Vyrerus' point is the idea that it was "contrived" for Hermes to have Kairos handy at the top of Ktisis Hyperboreia to wipe people's memories. We countered by pointing out how Hermes is a master mage who invented Kairos and has extremely fine control of creation magicks, meaning that it's not contrived at all for him to have access to it. Implying that it was "contrived" for Hermes for being able to use his already established powers to perform an action he was previously established to be capable of given his attempted rehabiltiation of the proto-hoarhounds is ludicrous and grasping at straws.

It's the literal opposite of it being contrived.

Except Kairos was already created, and it was in use by other Ancients in Elpis. It's supposed to be a serious and strictly monitored thing, so you're telling me there's more than one? Or that such a serious thing would be only in Ktsis, at the very top, when it has to be employed by any of the researchers anywhere else? You're telling me it's just is wherever Hermes is, even if he doesn't know whether it's been used or not earlier in Elpis?

Or he just created a new one, and it didn't tax him at all? After he'd already been taxed to his limits in the fight? You'd think such a powerful creation or device or whatever it's supposed to be would come with some weighty cost.

Or you know, the other more obvious problem with the scene. Emet-selch not just blowing Kairos the hell out of the air. Venat reaching out her hand to try and catch Meteion instead of hitting her with her chakrams or idk, multi-tooling her magic sword into a gun and shooting her down. Or the common Holmgang chains all characters get when they need to restrain other characters (Like the ones Hermes employed just a second ago, somehow, weee).

It's actually, really, a terrible scene contrived, artificial, in its every second. People stand with their thumbs up their ass, expositing instead of acting. Shown to seem like they tried their best, only for that to fall apart if you think about the scene for half a minute.