*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

The Ascians do not actually rejoin Shards by shooting lasers at the populace in the aspect they are trying to tip the Shard towards. Their plans always involve working with the population of said Shard and the Source to achieve their ends. They also don't tend to literally lie outright--though they certainly lie by omission--instead offering their chosen target something that will serve the interests of both parties.

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I can hear Gaius screaming from Werlyt and Varis howling from the afterlife right now.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

We can see this in the Vauthry scene. Emet-Selch doesn't visit Vauthry's mother in the middle of the night, while she slumbers, to inject her with liquid sin eater. He instead approaches the family and speaks to them directly, explaining what he can offer then and what it will entail.

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The deal was to ensure Vauthrys line would rule for perpetuity, not that he be the last king. Emet was clearly manipulating him. This wasn’t a partnership.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

Venat, on the other hand, lies to us pretty much constantly. She lies about the origins of Zodiark and Hydaelyn to us. She lies to us about how much power she has, what she is capable of accomplishing with that power. She allowed Hermes's lie to Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus to stand. She lies about what will happen when she assumes the guise of Hydaelyn to her followers. She did not tell us that we were shattered 14 parts of a greater whole to allow that to factor into the "choices" you say she gave us.

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Only one of these is true, the others are reaches for lies or are based on no evidence. To blame her for not telling Emet and Hyth, when the game clearly states the problems with that, is unfair to her.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

Zodiark was the work of elected officials after debate and struggle to save their star. Venat basically hijacked their work as a part of her own plan--a plan she didn't even share with her closest followers--and acted like the act of summoning Zodiark itself was some sort proof of moral deficiency. At best, she just kicked the can down the road 12K years for us to deal with. And if after all that, we couldn't? Well, she left her escape plan to the most isolationist society in the known world--thus practically ensuring the people that would be able to board her ark were limited at best--and the remaining six planets were shit out of luck. Looks like she valued their lives in the worst case scenario about as much as the Ascians did.

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No evidence she didn’t share the full plan, in fact based on the recording in Anyder they knew more than the Convocation. And Ishgard became isolationist, to prepare. Before that they participated in international affairs as much as any nation, but given the gravity of what was needed, they withdrew to focus on their work. And how was that to work? Create 13 moon ships? For a contingency if everything else failed? We don’t even know if that’s possible!

Edit: I meant Sharlayan not Ishgard lol

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Originally Posted by Lium

No, actually she did give them a choice. That's why I wrote this sentence: "Though we haven't seen the full story, Venat, it appears, did in fact try to reason with the Convocation and seemed to have a faction that helped her summon Hydaelyn. The cutscene showed that."

Go re-watch the sundering cutscene if you haven't already.

Also, that reset was the point. That's what saved humanity and gave us a chance at fighting and defeating Meteion.

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She approached them after the damage had been done, and she didnt exactly get consent from every ancient alive. She had the knowledge to potentially save the race itself and to prevent the final days altogether. She kept it a secret and then took control of every life upon the planet, sundering them. Again, people rant and rave about the consent with Mitron or with the rejoinings, you had better apply the same to Venat and her horrible decision-making.You call the plan to summon Zodiark idiotic. You realize the only reason they had to do this was because Venat refused to share information right? It's funny in your other post youre talking about choice, she didnt give the ancients any choice. She tried to approach them after the damage was done and their friends and family had died, and then made a decision that would impact the universe as we know it. However even barring that, Zodiark was the only reason we were even able to succeed, so by calling the plan idiotic, youre essentially saying that ensuring sundered survival is idiotic as well. Interesting take.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

I don't understand how you can frame things in "choice" vs "non choice" and come to the conclusion that Emet-Selch is the one that is the one invested in non-consent. Note, this is not a "good" or "bad" aspect of Emet-Selch, it just literally is. Emet-Selch is actually huge on consent. (Just not informed consent.)

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The "choice" the Ascians give the local populace on whatever shard they are about to destroy is manipulation and the illusion of choice. It's no different than if some conman came to you and said, "Would you like a million dollars?" And you say, "Yes!" and then he says, "Great. You just have to do this thing." You go and do that thing not realizing that the million dollars you are going to receive has just doomed you and your entire family.

Emet-Selch and Lahabrea were masters at identifying the weakness and desires of certain leaders, and then exploiting them.

But all this is moot because the overall goal is to Rejoin the shard, which removes the question altogether.

Zodiark was the work of elected officials to, for all intents and purposes, enslave themselves to a conjured god indefinitely. They were all going to be tempered and on top of that, still had no idea what the underlying cause of the Final Days were. The only solution they had after the Sundering was to genocide all the sundered people to bring their perfect civilization back. A civilization that was doomed to fall because, once again, they Final Days were not prevented.

Venat's plan outright answers Hermes' question and permanently stops the Final Days.

I don't think that destroying the world in order to answer some nutter's question is the action of a particularly sane or benevolent individual. Each to their own, though.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Snip.

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I very much agree with all of this, and appreciate you bringing another well thought out perspective.

I do think it is odd to call Emet-Selch's role "ambiguous" in Shadowbringers. Sympathetic and understandable, certainly. I actually quite like Emet-Selch and the other ascians, and can sympathize with them, but at no point do I feel like there is any question that they should be stopped.

I will admit that in Elpis I was wondering at first if we could create some kind of split timeline, though the introduction of kairos dashed those hopes. It did make me sad, but it didn't kill my enjoyment of the story any. Especially when Venat explained that she intended to try to stop the final days to the best of her ability, in her own timeline. There's a sense that she tried her best and did what she thought she could to forestall things, but ultimately was led to the path of sundering. Rather than just doing it becausw the WoL said it would happen.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't think that destroying the world in order to answer some nutter's question is the action of a particularly sane or benevolent individual. Each to their own, though.

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Never said she was benevolent. In fact, in each of my posts I've called her solutions "dark", "controversial, "and the lesser of two evils."

And yet, that nutter's question is the basis for the Final Days as it is written in the game. That is the whole reason the writers have given for its existence.

I just think summoning Zodiark was idiotic.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I just think summoning Zodiark was idiotic.

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...and as has been pointed out many times within this very thread, Zodiark is the entire reason why Etheirys even exists both before and after the Sundering. If there is no Zodiark, there is no Etheirys.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Never said she was benevolent. In fact, in each of my posts I've called her solutions "dark", "controversial, "and the lesser of two evils."

And yet, that nutter's question is the basis for the Final Days as it is written in the game. That is the whole reason the writers have given for its existence.

I just think summoning Zodiark was idiotic.

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Could you please then explain how it was idiotic? What other choice did they have exactly? Also bringing up Zodiark's tempering is a bit of a mott point considering we now know the "tempering" was very minimal, so much so even the loporrits say it, and we know from the short story the tempering was so minimal even the convocation was split on the 3rd sacrifice decision. Once again, the only reason they had to summon Zodiark is Venat didnt tell people the truth of what would happen and didnt prepare them. Had she told them perhaps they could have found a solution without summoning him. Its a bit besides the point though as her entire plan relied upon him. So in that case her entire plan was idiotic as well.

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Originally Posted by Lium

No, actually she did give them a choice. That's why I wrote this sentence: "Though we haven't seen the full story, Venat, it appears, did in fact try to reason with the Convocation and seemed to have a faction that helped her summon Hydaelyn. The cutscene showed that."

Go re-watch the sundering cutscene if you haven't already.

Also, that reset was the point. That's what saved humanity and gave us a chance at fighting and defeating Meteion.

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Sound also to me like the convocation of 14 was a ruling body of government for the planet. And they do tend to be able to make decisions on what they feel is right for the people. Also we have no idea how long it was between the last set of sacrifices and the third set they were proposing, so we can not even state that the common man had no choice in the matter. For all we know they did have that choice and the majority were voting for that third sacrifice and not listening to what Venat and her group where saying.

Quoted you Lium just to add this to it

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Originally Posted by Lium

I just think summoning Zodiark was idiotic.

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I wouldn't go so far to say it was "idiotic", the convocation might have seen it as thier only option. Though it is interesting to note that Hermes as Fanadaniel appears to be the one who designed the concept that became Zodiark. Is it any suprise that so much death was required for Zodiark to function, knowing what we know about Hermes' subconconcious desires for oblivion.

If Hermes really did want everyone and himself to die, then getting half thier population to sacrifice themselves was a good start.