The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

The boss drains his own hp during add phase... For all intent and purposes, the only period in which you are not attacking amounts to about 20 seconds.

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The HP I used was the total damage done to him directly by players via parses. I'm well aware of the mechanics of the fight, thank you. A Blackmage could crit one of the adds sitting at 1 HP for 389047318740 damage and it wouldn't subtract the overkill from the bosses HP pool, making the add phase completely useless for figuring out how much DPS you need for the boss when it's vulnerable.

That said, I did forgot to account for LB damage. Which would shave off roughly 180-200 DPS from the overall fight. So average DPS requirements would need to be in the realm of 1445-1450 to clear.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

The HP I used was the total damage done to him directly by players via parses. I'm well aware of the mechanics of the fight, thank you. A Blackmage could crit one of the adds sitting at 1 HP for 389047318740 damage and it wouldn't subtract the overkill from the bosses HP pool, making the add phase completely useless for figuring out how much DPS you need for the boss when it's vulnerable.

That said, I did forgot to account for LB damage. Which would shave off roughly 180-200 DPS from the overall fight. So average DPS requirements would need to be in the realm of 1445-1450 to clear.

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Try to explain to you why you are completely wrong, but since you are being stubborn, let me point you to an actual fight:
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/wb4DHz...pe=damage-done
So ya 6000 raid dps doesn't hit enrage. But you're so insistent that for some reason you have 2 mins of the boss's hp not dropping. Assuming tanks contribute 1500 (your assumption), dps only need 1125 each.

Why? If you guys are so hell bent on proving who is right or wrong then why don't you just take it outside and duke it out. In the end 95% of the player base could give 2 sour doe bread's about your opinions. If you have a problem with then I suggest you take a look deep down inside yourself and ask yourself "is it worth it" in the end nobody give a crap about your opinions.

So I suggest you all to just hold your breath until your face turns purple at least then people will notice how goofy you all are.

You aren't paying attention. The HP the bosses loses during the add phase is a completely static amount, roughly 8.5%. I'm taking in account the bosses HP as if the amount it loses during the add phase didn't exist in the first place.

I will admit I did make another mistake though, I got enrage time wrong by a fair amount. DPS average needs to be 1335 before LB's are taken into account. The better midcore players should be able to hit that, I think, particularly with 205 weapons and 210 everywhere else.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

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There is one more mistake in that you compared your estimated dps directly against the dps readings at the end of the fight. So while it may be true that you need about 1300 dps per person while the boss is up, your numbers read at the end of the fight are going to be significantly lower due to that downtime between the phases. You would have to take that BLM's damage done only to Living Liquid and do about the same calculation to figure out what his dps would be only against the boss.

I think the best thing that shows how tightly tuned A3S is is when looking at the monk parses, the bottom 10% and top 99% are only 250 dps different, vs A1S where there is a 550 dps difference.

I do believe that quote about the dev team not taking healer dps was originally about Coil. If that's the case, then things may very well have changed while they were working to up the difficulty in savage.

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Originally Posted by hagare

Like I said, we have no idea what the hard number they use when they set up the raid is, so throwing out numbers now is meaningless.
What I can say with 100% certainty, is that at the appropriate ilvl, healer DPS is not needed to clear the raid.
Because that is what was said in the interview.

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It's certainly not matching up with what's happening, though. We can agree with that's what they said in the interview, but not so much that it's necessarily the case, and it wouldn't be the first time that the outcome of content is directly the opposite of what they had said or intended. We're looking at absolute perfection in mechanics throughout the entire fight and absolute uptime on DPS, and you'd probably still see the enrage casscade with the appropriate Ilvl and assuming no str-tank and no healer dps (and if we want to take an extra mile), and possibly that it can be done with any job combination that fits the 2tank/2melee/2range/2healer setup since they had also intended for that with their delayed-to-3.2 LB changes.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

I do believe that quote about the dev team not taking healer dps was originally about Coil. If that's the case, then things may very well have changed while they were working to up the difficulty in savage.

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They said that it was not the case for coil, and at the least we can see that thorugh how the fights were designed. They'd also said that they had kept that in mind for Alexander, I can't necessarily say that it's the case something like A3s or even 4 (if we're taking into consideration that the sac method is by far more preferable than dealing with nisi proper)

Since you're still questioning the statement about healer DPS in raid building:
full interview translation:
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29

The related statement:

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

I do believe that quote about the dev team not taking healer dps was originally about Coil. If that's the case, then things may very well have changed while they were working to up the difficulty in savage.

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I think the post above answers your question about the savage part.
PS: Please don't make assumptions in an argument about objective things. Like how they design an encounter.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's certainly not matching up with what's happening, though. We can agree with that's what they said in the interview, but not so much that it's necessarily the case, and it wouldn't be the first time that the outcome of content is directly the opposite of what they had said or intended. We're looking at absolute perfection in mechanics throughout the entire fight and absolute uptime on DPS, and you'd probably still see the enrage casscade with the appropriate Ilvl and assuming no str-tank and no healer dps (and if we want to take an extra mile), and possibly that it can be done with any job combination that fits the 2tank/2melee/2range/2healer setup since they had also intended for that with their delayed-to-3.2 LB changes.



They said that it was not the case for coil, and at the least we can see that thorugh how the fights were designed. They'd also said that they had kept that in mind for Alexander, I can't necessarily say that it's the case something like A3s or even 4 (if we're taking into consideration that the sac method is by far more preferable than dealing with nisi proper)

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This argument of yours is assuming that you are at an appropriate ilvl for the encounter.
Something that we have no idea about.

As for the bolded part, If you are at an appropriate ilvl and you still see enrage, then we are breaching into the territory of player skill, and player skill is subjective and can not be included when you're talking about raw numbers. Which is how they design the raid.
For example, you can still wipe even when you outgear a content.

PS: you don't even have to play perfectly if you have the right ilvl as they made the content with a 10-15% margin of error.

Since when all 3 tanks are doing the same DPS?
Even Yoshi-P said that PLD will not have same DPS as WAR or DRK... he is defence tank!
Then Adding Buffs (Ninja, Bard or others), I really would like to know which group setup they are calculating with...
Dont mention Potions and ping time...

10 - 15% is not much and when i see all those insta death mechanics its just a joke and you have to reduce boss strength as requirement to clear it -> thats just ridiculous if you base your calculations from highest possible! I remember good old days where developers were aiming to make the game beatable and based their calculations on a common (normal) group. Developers nowadays argue with "we can scale down every time if needed" but i remember the good old days where it was "We can scale UP every time if we need it"... Where does this stupidity come from? They like to unsub players until content gets easier? Well, you cant pay for a day, you pay for a month, so if you easy up content each month you force players to pay and then after payment you dont care if they have fun or not, just make sure they will pay next month again...

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Questions

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Go ask that in the next live letter xD

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Originally Posted by hagare

PS: you don't even have to play perfectly if you have the right ilvl as they made the content with a 10-15% margin of error.

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They may have intended to, but Yoshi admitted that the DPS checks are too stringent for item levels alone to be enough, which suggests they mistuned the content.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

• The difficulty was high to the point that players were transferring to different Worlds in search of groups to beat it.
• The difficulty was high to the point that players were unable to clear the content, and the time in which they were unable to obtain items grew too long.
• Due to the severity of DPS checks, it’s not possible to supplement with item levels only.

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Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Moving-Forward

If item levels aren't going to be enough for them, that means DPS from additional sources is necessary; i.e., healer and tank DPS.