What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Why don't you explain what would need to happen for you specifically to accept the use of the term genocide in this context?

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Venat would have to be targeting them because they are humanoids when that isn't the case. If that were the case in isolation what would stop her from doing it in general? Why not do it before Zodiark? Venat says "from that temptation I sunder us" as she is doing it. The temptation is Zodiark and the desire for the past

What would make it genocide is saying "I sunder us because you are humanoids (or whatever). Genocide is associated with targeting specific groups based on their race. That's what makes it different from a massacre or an assassination. Using it however you want is intellectually lazy. You can still do it. No one will think less of you except me.

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Originally Posted by Xeronia

Holy heck we hit 900 pages? It has been a journey hasn't it?

As for the current topic I too would love to stop talking about Venat/timelines as it is clearly going nowhere. Personally my opinion remains largely unchanged and the writing of all of Endwalker has been as the title suggests lackluster and the patch content may have made that go from lackluster to terrible after Zero and how little I cared for her with how much the plot pushed the idea friendship and basically converted her into a scion instantly.

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You could tell everything about Zero, and where here character would go, as soon as she walked onto screen.

It was so cheesy and predictable. Right down to her job changing to paladin.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Venat would have to be targeting them because they are humanoids when that isn't the case. If that were the case in isolation what would stop her from doing it in general? Why not do it before Zodiark? Venat says "from that temptation I sunder us" as she is doing it. The temptation is Zodiark and the desire for the past.

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She can't do it before Zodiark is summoned as she needs him to hold back the dynamis

The definition fits rather aptly and the concept of genocide exists within the setting itself, given that it is brought up directly within the game during a number of occasions.

Given that the end result of Venat's actions resulted in the deliberate elimination of her species in order to replace them with something completely different through racial replacement and eugenics it is perfectly acceptable to make use of the term. This is because she views it as necessary to be able to wield dynamis to bring about a species less aetherically dense than the ancients. As I recall, you've used it yourself earlier on during the debate so it seems you also acknowledge that it exists within the setting. I suppose that saves us a fair bit of trouble in itself!

So ultimately, whatever personal hangups with the word certain posters may or may not have are entirely their own - though nobody is obligated to dance around the subject and refuse to use the term to describe the Sundering and the consequences that it brought about.

Though what's particularly interesting is that even when the term isn't used the goalposts then move to attempting to justify Venat's actions as an unfortunate necessity which really just proves the concerns raised in regards to the real intention in play being an effort to downplay the atrocities that Venat had a hand in bringing about.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

You could tell everything about Zero, and where here character would go, as soon as she walked onto screen.

It was so cheesy and predictable. Right down to her job changing to paladin.

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The only real surprise is that they didn't go as far as to reveal her real name to be Cecilia. Incidentally, I really liked her initially - a character with a more mercenary and cynical personality would have done wonders to shake up the increasingly stale cast of characters that we're forced to contend with. It's such a shame that despite being an MMO with players from many different backgrounds, cultures and belief systems the game is so desperate to have every major character undergo the process of 'Scionification'.

At least in the previous games there was more of an effort to have tensions and rivalries within the main cast. I do wish we'd see more of a bone thrown to those of us with different personal tastes - I imagine the number of players who aren't hugely interested in watching G'raha try a new type of food as he gushes over the Warrior of Light and wriggles his ears is decently high.

The question in that is "you did this to all living things", which again confirms it was a general attack. Although it had many effects, the target was Zodiark.

Again genocide would be doing it because she is targeting due to race or ethnicity, or even people with specific aether density perhaps. But the sundering affected all aether density of everything. You can't even really invoke eugenics here because she didn't target human reproduction but aether levels.

Even in real life genocide is applied with regards to intention to harm, oppress etc. I'm sorry you feel how you do but Venat's intentions were oriented around long term survival and the preservation of the star. It's another disqualifier. This is why I've said since the beginning intention matters. She didn't reduce aether levels across the star for some nefarious reason.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Whats hilarious is that you don't know how definitions work, can't find a better word to describe what happened, and are seemingly triggered because you operate just as much as on theory as everyone else.

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So I guess you missed this part?

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Originally Posted by Xirean

https://i.imgur.com/eHooDPA.png

The sundering is the literal textbook definition of genocide.

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I'd also be warry of accusing people of not knowing how definitions work when you don't know the difference between theory and headcanon.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

It isn't. I've already said that several times by excessively referring to my ideas as opinions. The devs haven't confirmed or denied but rather offered "maybes" and "form your own opinion on it". So that's what I did. And I'm not the only one...it is a very common idea.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

And that's different from headcanon how?

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

The question in that is "you did this to all living things", which again confirms it was a general attack. Although it had many effects, the target was Zodiark.

Again genocide would be doing it because she is targeting due to race or ethnicity, or even people with specific aether density perhaps. But the sundering affected all aether density of everything. You can't even really invoke eugenics here because she didn't target human reproduction but aether levels.

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Sundering specifically to remove Zodiarks defiance from the equation. Sundering the people specifically to create a race of people less aethericly dence to interact with something the current race of people don't do well but can create other things that can. Is ok with catching the entire rest of the planet in the blast zone in order to achieve this.

https://i.imgur.com/wPN1iJw.png
https://i.imgur.com/3JaTLgJ.png
https://i.imgur.com/gLw8K1c.png

This is all pretty in line with the definition of genocide and arguably also eugenics.

We already know that her intention was to eliminate her own species and replace them with a different species, acknowledging just that when confronted by the Warrior of Light and Scions, as per the conversation with Y'shtola:

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Y'shtola: Having seen mankind brought to the very precipice of extinction, you wished for us to develop a means to overcome despair.
Y'shtola: You believed we had the potential, and sundered all creation to see it fulfilled. To deliver us to that swirling maelstrom of dynamis in which our foe hides, and grant us the power to defeat her once and for all. Is this not true?
Hydaelyn: It is as thou sayest. 'Twas the trial to which I subjected mankind, and it hath led to untold bloodshed and suffering. There was no kindness nor justice in the tragedy I wrought.
Hydaelyn: When confronted with the almighty Zodiark, my only recourse was to rend Him and the world asunder, that His power be diminished for a time.
Hydaelyn: And so it came to pass. Now you, my chosen, have surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me.

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So, yeah - she's explicit in regards to it being her goal, which Yoshi confirms in the previously and repeatedly linked Q&A in addition to her fears about her people eventually becoming like the Nibirun. Zodiark was needed to maintain Etheirys' shield and had to be Sundered because he was an obstacle to Venat's plan and while she could not fully control the scope, Zodiark's power was so great she ended up having to sunder all life in addition to him, but that's collateral damage as the Ancients are very clearly stated to be the main target.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Again genocide would be doing it because she is targeting due to race or ethnicity, or even people with specific aether density perhaps. But the sundering affected all aether density of everything. You can't even really invoke eugenics here because she didn't target human reproduction but aether levels.

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You can because she is trying to bring about a new mankind she believes is better suited to a specific problem she has in mind so reproduction is irrelevant because she has magical means to effect it. There is, of course this as well:

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Hermes: Harboring high concentrations of aether, we ancients cannot readily manipulate dynamis─nor be manipulated by it. Therefore, rather than our selves, the calamity affected our magicks.
Hermes: In contrast, having been sundered, the people of the future are composed of but a fraction of our aether.
Hermes: Thus are they susceptible to the influence of dynamis─and its transformative potential.

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So it was very much a deliberate act and an intended consequence. The Sundering was always about replacing her own species with something different in an effort to bring about Meteion's defeat. A combination of action and inaction resulted in a heavy cost and it strikes me as rather strange to downplay and ignore that cost to try and frame it as something completely different.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Even in real life genocide is applied with regards to intention to harm, oppress etc. I'm sorry you feel how you do but Venat's intentions were oriented around long term survival and the preservation of the star. It's another disqualifier. This is why I've said since the beginning intention matters. She didn't reduce aether levels across the star for some nefarious reason.

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There's no asterisk in any definition of it that says it doesn't count if the perpetrator thinks they're acting for the greater good. In itself, there are various forms of genocide both direct and indirect, soft and hard. It can be as simple as killing large swathes of people with direct murder or cutting off supply lines in order to cause them to starve. The method matters little as opposed to the intended result and we know that the intended result was the deliberate eradication and replacement of her own species.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's no asterisk in any definition of it that says it doesn't count if the perpetrator thinks they're acting for the greater good. In itself, there are various forms of genocide both direct and indirect, soft and hard. It can be as simple as killing large swathes of people with direct murder or cutting off supply lines in order to cause them to starve. The method matters little as opposed to the intended result and we know that the intended result was the deliberate eradication and replacement of her own species.

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Adding onto this for clarity/fairness. I want people to understand that this applies to the Ascians as well. This is not about hating Venat or taking one side over the other. The Ascians are called out plenty in game and the simple desire is that the same be done with Hydaelyn or failing that, be able to recognize the similarity. The sundering is genocide as are the rejoinings. Both sides have their reasons for doing what they but that changes nothing. There is no asterisk for the definition. It's just genocide.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

So I guess you missed this part?



I'd also be warry of accusing people of not knowing how definitions work when you don't know the difference between theory and headcanon.













Sundering specifically to remove Zodiarks defiance from the equation. Sundering the people specifically to create a race of people less aethericly dence to interact with something the current race of people don't do well but can create other things that can. Is ok with catching the entire rest of the planet in the blast zone in order to achieve this.

https://i.imgur.com/wPN1iJw.png
https://i.imgur.com/3JaTLgJ.png
https://i.imgur.com/gLw8K1c.png

This is all pretty in line with the definition of genocide and arguably also eugenics.

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Except she didn't target a group of people, she targeted Zodiark, we can see the physical injury it inflicted on him. She targeted the temptation of man. It's literally called out in the moment. We learn later that it had the effect of lowering aether density but even then, it wasn't targetted solely on man. She also mentions this in the trial. The sundering was going to happen whether the Final Days occurred or not-- the first motivator and the primary motivator was Zodiark. Aether density, not ethnicity, is a secondary motivator and her intentions were survival. I'd also argue regarding destroying-- can we really even say anything was destroyed? You're mourning the loss of personalities in theory but humans are shards that, if rejoined, constitute that Ancient. This is another reason I find it weird to apply genocide to fantasy because it doesn't account for the physics of that fantasy world.

The phrase "it is a trial to which i subjected mankind" is just a long winded way of saying it put humanity through a rough time. It doesn't mean "I expressly did this to cause a trial for mankind". You can read it how you like but I don't agree. It doesn't make sense to me to follow a question that clearly points out it affected the star and all living things and then interpret it as an attack on man. There was also a functional use for dividing up the star and Zodiark's power.

Intention is not included in definition but it is used at large when defining genocide in say, legal cases. It is not the case that just any large scale killing is labeled as genocide.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Adding onto this for clarity/fairness. I want people to understand that this applies to the Ascians as well. This is not about hating Venat or taking one side over the other. The Ascians are called out plenty in game and the simple desire is that the same be done with Hydaelyn or failing that, be able to recognize the similarity. The sundering is genocide as are the rejoinings. Both sides have their reasons for doing what they but that changes nothing. There is no asterisk for the definition. It's just genocide.

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It's closer to genocide for some of the Ascians because said individuals are targeting humans and have contempt for humanity. Emet stands out here. For Ascians generally it's debatable as what they want is a rejoining to get back their world (so again its a case of targetting all living things) which has the effect of returning humans to Ancient form which is, again, effectively killing but is it bc FFXIV.

There could also be a case of genocide when it comes to who/what they're sacrificing to Zodiark to feed him post summoning (it isn't clear enough to make a definitive case).

I'm also not interested in defending Venat or the Ascians. I'm just pointing out there are better ways to describe their actions and motivations. There are genocidal characters in XIV but with the Ancients their motivations can be more complicated and "larger" than targeting people due to race or ethnicity. Yotsuyu targets people because she is cruel..Ancients are in a battle for what they believe leads to survival.

I'd also note anyone who says "dancing around it" or something similar is exposing themselves as contrarians. It's shock value because you're admitting you understand the very human and legal context of the word but you're applying it to an imaginary version of humans who are in a war for survival against a doom songstress (not downplaying EW I loved it). It screams edgelord and that's just how it seems, I'm sorry if that's insulting. I'm not implying anything about anyone's moral preferences or whatever. I find it odd people do that in relation to Venat, again it seems so specific bc no one will call me out for saying it's case by case with the Ascians and Ancients I am sure. As I've said earlier Venat not acting also destroys the future so it's a bit hypocritical as well bc if you think one thing is genocide so is her alternative. So there is no winning for Venat. I've called out some instances of it but I just don't think every single thing is up for the genocide label.