What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

maybe the world would be better off blind if the the fear makes it stop causing suffering maybe its better off without eyes at all

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Now you are just advocating for good ol' genocide! Welcome to the human race!

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

if you show them real pain they will stop causing it

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That only works on people who have empathy and self-awareness. The apathetic and the ignorant will only notice their own pain.

Even worse, they may internalize their own pain, come to see that pain as a good thing for making them "stronger", and then demand that similar pain be inflicted on other people to cull the weak from the strong.

For an example...that is basically the entire plot of Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'm blanking on when we get to say anything to Emet that isn't us being a smart aleck or just looking sad.

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Never. Even at the end we are never even allowed to say thank you for saving our asses yet again, much less having the option to apologize for...everything. Just nothing but nods and sadly looking at our shoes.

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

no i got that point and mataphor so i shifted into one of my own ... god i hate mentioning this anime but

if you show them real pain they will stop causing it like pain in naruto did

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Are you trying to say: If people doth an eye for an eye, it'll maketh the whole world safer, as nobody shall dareth taketh of mine own eye in future, lest they seeketh mine own retribution?

(Edit: I'm just playing a nonsensical parody at this point)

By all means enlighten us on how stewing in rages for eons and committing genocide fixes or makes better yourself or brings back the dead. Once broken you can't repair things to thr way they were. The world, both in game and real, is imperfect and as long as beings have will conflict will happen. It's just the way things are.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

By all means enlighten us on how stewing in rages for eons and committing genocide fixes or makes better yourself or brings back the dead. Once broken you can't repair things to thr way they were. The world, both in game and real, is imperfect and as long as beings have will conflict will happen. It's just the way things are.

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Somethings arent about fixing or bringing back the dead, if you cant be fixed and they can be bringed back then destory the root cause of that, why should they laugh and smile when they take from u.

sometimes an example has to be made to make the point

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

Somethings arent about fixing or bringing back the dead, if you cant be fixed and they can be bringed back then destory the root cause of that, why should they laugh and smile when they take from u.

sometimes an example has to be made to make the point

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Starting to sound like some jrpg villain my guy.

This sounds like the point where people would say "Drop it because this is off topic" when I argue.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

This sounds like the point where people would say "Drop it because this is off topic" when I argue.

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You are correct. We've strayed too far from the regular scheduled dead horse beating. Shame, yesterday's discussion on how to rewrite the plot to make a better narrative was nice.

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Originally Posted by Starshower

https://i.imgur.com/UUZNepO.png

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Sorry, every time I see this image I just crack up because I remember a comment I saw about: "Well, they never said it would be us taking down the Garlean Empire..."

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Starting to sound like some jrpg villain my guy.

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maybe because games in general like many comics make villians who actrually have a point like poison ivy in dc

Elpis ranch under siege by the Venat marines.
Reports indicate they are being sundered in their sleep.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

We've strayed too far from the regular scheduled dead horse beating.

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Criticize Venat more, you say? Don't mind if I do!

Man, with the added context, her willingness to leave 75% of the population imprisoned and miserable inside of Zodiark forever is pretty messed up, huh? Or perhaps because of the timeloop, she figured "eh, they'll be out in 12K years when Fandaniel blows up Zodiark, it's fine."

Vanet is kind of girl who says lets be friends and work togeather, then stabs you in the back and say this person is a monster all while she manipuletes and bullys others

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Criticize Venat more, you say? Don't mind if I do!

Man, with the added context, her willingness to leave 75% of the population imprisoned and miserable inside of Zodiark forever is pretty messed up, huh? Or perhaps because of the timeloop, she figured "eh, they'll be out in 12K years when Fandaniel blows up Zodiark, it's fine."

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Doesn't beat the psychopathic tendencies of Hermes and his borderline nihilistic dolly subjecting the entire universe to their doom and gloom antics.

Speaking of suffering souls in Zodiark, was I the only one that felt as though Yoshi-P had never thought for a second about the repercussions of having a world's amount of Unsundered souls entering the Aetherial Sea and being reborn? What was his answer? That maybe they might be a bit "cooler" but otherwise no different from regular people? Really? Such a lame response.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Doesn't beat the psychopathic tendencies of Hermes and his borderline nihilistic dolly subjecting the entire universe to their doom and gloom antics.

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you know the nihilistic mete is the only part i respected of her because she was right

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

Vanet is kind of girl who says lets be friends and work togeather, then stabs you in the back and say this person is a monster all while she manipuletes and bullys others

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Hey, I think that trait can be fun and very interesting in a character. Venat is a masterclass, like many people are in reality, in carefully phrasing things in pleasantly vague ways so you will read general warmth and benevolent intent behind her words, and thus happily return to your own timeline without diving further into "wait, when you say you 'love mankind' and 'believe in mankind's potential', you mean what? And you use this as self-justification to do what?"

I mean, even her big speech on the bridge about her epiphany about the miracle of creation and seeing the world in a new way - when you look back at it, she's saying essentially nothing concrete at the time, and when you can contextualize from her future actions, it quickly becomes, uh, kind of disturbing.

In a lot of ways, I love Venat! The story did her character an utter disservice. Give me my incredibly ruthless, intelligent, unapologetic ideologue without these insecure apologisms, SE, you cheats.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Doesn't beat the psychopathic tendencies of Hermes and his borderline nihilistic dolly subjecting the entire universe to their doom and gloom antics.

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I can't say I can get myself quite on board with either "I shall project my psychological issues onto everyone around me and all reality to BTFO Emet-Selch and the other Ancients I seethingly hate" and "only the strong survive in this cruel universe! if you don't accept your loved ones being locked in a painful purgatory forever, this is a sign of weakness, and you must be culled and replaced with a species more receptive to my ideas!" Can I, um, take a third option? Please? Surely there are other options besides this?

Azura is the superior 'vague and speaks only in hints but is really looking out for your best interests' mommy goddess. Vivec was wrong to force his Muatra down her throat! The chad Daedric Prince with a champion who consumes ebony and glass vs. the virgin Primal whose champion has to be constantly given macguffins. brb time for my annual playthrough

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Originally Posted by Brinne

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Hermes and Venat would've been best buddies if you think about it.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Azura is the superior 'vague and speaks only in hints but is really looking out for your best interests' mommy goddess. Vivec was wrong to force his Muatra down her throat! The chad Daedric Prince with a champion who consumes ebony and glass vs. the virgin Primal whose champion has to be constantly given macguffins. brb time for my annual playthrough

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That was written by Vivec so...take it with a grain of salt. Funnily enough Venat is a combination of Azura and Boethiah in many ways.

Even though the story had its low and strong points I liked the EW story and the conclusion to the mainplot overall. In my opinion they wrapped up loose plotpoints from previous expansions and ARR just fine. It was also nice to see all our old friends again, like the skypirates or Cid and Nero.

This does of course not mean that the story was perfect or that SE could not have done better. The story definitely had some pacing issues and I was not really much of a fan of some story parts on the moon or in Labyrinthos. They dragged on forever and felt boring at times.

I would have also liked to see more lasting effects of the Final Days. Thavnair does not really look like a zone that was hit with doomsday after the story ends. Garlemald also felt more like a sidestory, but I understand that it was necessary to wrap the empire plot up fast because time to do so was limited in EW. A Garlemald expansion would surely have been the better way to conclude the empire's story, but I am honest, I am rather burnt out with the empire and glad that it is over and that the empire can finally move on. Maybe we will see how that develops when the twins are helping the survivors of Garlemald in the future story.

On the other hand the story of EW had also its good points. I really appreciate how the story fleshed out our friendship with the scions and our old, new friends which made the story way more tragic and emotional for me. I knew of course that we would not really loose the scions when they sacrificed themselfes in Ultima Thule, but the scenes in which they gave their lifes so that we could move forward really hit me strongly. It was like our WoL was failing in the one singular thing that was constant throughout the game and in EW especially: the need to save those that we truly care for.

Since we players know SE's history of bringing back dead characters I feel like this story part only really brings out emotions in the player when you RP your WoL and not just follow the story like a disconnected reader. Therefore I can understand the critique that the sacrifices were kind of pointless because the scions would live either way. But to me that story part was awesome. Poor WoL! He is always going through so much and yet stays strong, I love it.

I also really enjoyed how the story played out in the end with the Endsinger. Meteion and Hermes as tragic villains were great and refreshing. Their story was just so sad and I really did not see it coming that Fandaniel is Amon and Hermes. Loved that plottwist!

That Zodiark was not the real big bad is something I am really glad for, because it made the story far more interesting to me than had SE gone the way with Zenos consuming Zodiark which would have been just boring. It was also fine that Zodiark was dealt with early on in the story because to me the story with the Ancients was far more interesting. I liked that they spend more time on that.

I also loved that Venat had her flaws and was morally rather grey. I spend days reflecting on Venat's moral code and her motives. To me she is a hero because thanks to her the world has a future it would not have without her doings. This does not mean that she is perfect or that I excuse or forgive her way of ensuring that future. Neither does she as she herself admits during the conversation with her in the aetheric sea. And that is something I really appreciate because the story does not paint her as that flawless beeing that is always in the right, like so many other games do with their gods. It felt fitting that she had to sacrifice what she really loved as a punishment for her ways and that she does not get to reincarnate. Venat was just as tragic as Hermes and Emet-Selch. Good at heart but flawed. I love all of them, but maybe I just have a thing for tragic characters and storys :D

The last story dungeon hit home really hard for me as well due to the reallife parallels. It is by far my favourite dungeon in the whole game. I also liked how well done the expansion was cinematically overall and I just love the EW soundtrack. I could listen to Flow and Footfalls all day.

Even though the expansion has its flaws and could have done better at some points, I am happy with what we got and am looking forward to the WoL's new adventures! :) Hopefully we may meet our old, new friends one day again (which might not happen, but my WoL can hope).

I also think that the story of EW achieved what it was trying to do, namely to get people thinking not just in black and white, as this thread and others in the lore forum really prove. It is really great to see how the players reflect on the story and its characters. Let us just not forget that every opinion is viable because everyone has different tastes.

As much as I hated Hermes, he was the antagonist after all and, depending on your POV, the ultimate villain of the universe despite the writer(s) wanting me to feel bad for him. He served his role.

The same can't be said for Venat who is at the very least depicted as the savior of Etheirys despite acting in ways no different than Hermes (they're just Ancients being Ancients!) and arguably worse. There was no challenge issued to the shards, for example, they were always just disposable. She also historically has no care of people's souls having consumed those of her followers to become Hydaelyn, condemning the sundered to losing theirs to the Final Days, and then burning through her own. The Ascians weren't even that bad.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Speaking of suffering souls in Zodiark, was I the only one that felt as though Yoshi-P had never thought for a second about the repercussions of having a world's amount of Unsundered souls entering the Aetherial Sea and being reborn? What was his answer? That they might be a bit "cooler" but otherwise no different from regular people? Really? Such a lame response.

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Unless there's some aetheric limitation in place due to the sundering it makes no sense that they wouldn't be reborn as full Ancients.

The fact that they don't think about these sorts of things reminds me so much of the many issues I had with Steven Universe at the end, in fact, I realized the other day that the WoL is basically Steven while Azem is Rose/Pink. That won't mean anything to anyone who hasn't seen the show, but if you have maybe you see the similarities too.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Unless there's some aetheric limitation in place due to the sundering it makes no sense that they wouldn't be reborn as full Ancients.

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Yep. Didn't Emet-Selch tell us that if we survived the Rejoinings that we'd be "complete", meaning like them again? So then why would that not logically be the case for souls that are being born into the world at 14/14? At least we can say we're only 9/14 and have a ways to go but what would the reasoning be for them? They haven't thought anything out and man does it show.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Yep. Didn't Emet-Selch tell us that if we survived the Rejoinings that we'd be "complete", meaning like them again? So then why would that not logically be the case for souls that are being born into the world at 14/14? At least we can say we're only 9/14 and have a ways to go but what would the reasoning be for them? They haven't thought anything out and man does it show.

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This is also something I have been wondering. Maybe due to the sundering of the aetheric sea one can only be reborn sundered as well? No idea. Let's hope they adress this issue someday.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

They haven't thought anything out and man does it show.

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The theme of the Q&A LL, unfortunately. I'm going to guess they have no intention of having any of them reincarnate within the WoL's lifespan. It seems like there is a choice in whether or not souls choose to be reborn and if those within Zodiark aren't keen on sundered Etheirys they may decide to stay put for awhile. I'm just going to use that as fuel for my headcanon that eventually the Source becomes whole again. :P

I'm still bothered by the fact that the Final Days seemingly destroyed sundered souls though. There are a significant amount of Ancients who can never come back now. It seems like there's no end to their tragedy.

I think it is pretty bad that Yoshi P had to come out and state that Zenos is actually dead, you know that's why they showed him stop breathing in the scene.

I saw him slit his own throat... why would I think he is now dead when he just closed his eyes and breathed out loudly.

Zenos said he wanted to die and even assuming he didn't quite literally "burn the candle of his life", it's stated that reaper avatars have a precedent for preying on their pact-bearers the moment their souls begin to wane, so I'm inclined to think he is actually dead and that the void shenanigans in the 6.1 trailer are linked to his avatar somehow.

That said, I am genuinely interested in the direction the new story is headed in, with ancient mysteries and the void seeming to be a focus.

Just curious on why they want more stories centered around Zenos, it would be his avatar but still i’m sure they’ll find some way to stick him back in.He’s beyond redundant, and i don’t see what’s so compelling about him to keep making stories with him and not characters that are way more interesting like some of the ancients.

Pfffft, I want more stories involving Zenos. May our bestie tag along with us on the most mundane and absurd of fetch quests and side activities, with the dulcet tones of Luke Allen-Gale shouting "HAVE YOU THE STRENGTH???" as he activates a Same-Plus combo in our Triple Triad matches and beyond.

It's unpopular here but I love Zenos. I've never seen as someone to be angry about, he was just a character who made me roll my eyes a lot and wanted to fight me. No more annoying than Alisae constantly trying to challenge me to shit she can't possibly win every five minutes. To me he's just pure fun and it's not really the character's fault that the writers couldn't figure out a damn thing to do with him. There was a ton of potential there with him being the Prince of Garlemald and Emet-Selch's great-grandson (with latent Ancient powers!!!)and a civil war happening that we never even got to see, but they just left it all to wither. If they brought him back and put him to good use I wouldn't complain one bit but I don't have the faith that they could pull that off at all so probably best he just stays asleep.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Pfffft, I want more stories involving Zenos. May our bestie tag along with us on the most mundane and absurd of fetch quests and side activities, with the dulcet tones of Luke Allen-Gale shouting "HAVE YOU THE STRENGTH???" as he activates a Same-Plus combo in our Triple Triad matches and beyond.

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LOL YES!! Zenos gang rise up! When they release that minion I'm gonna let that little goober follow me around all day and just watch him swiping at my ankles.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Just curious on why they want more stories centered around Zenos, it would be his avatar but still i’m sure they’ll find some way to stick him back in.He’s beyond redundant, and i don’t see what’s so compelling about him to keep making stories with him and not characters that are way more interesting like some of the ancients.

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Zenos is popular in japan. Famitsu(while not all encompassing) did a poll in March for the favorite 14 characters and Zenos made the top twenty overall.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

Zenos is popular in japan. Famitsu(while not all encompassing) did a poll in March for the favorite 14 characters and Zenos made the top twenty overall.

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That’s surprising to me. I just find him dull personally, i see him as adding nothing to the story, he killed off and outlasted characters who had way more potential and depth to them, and in the end his storyline in ShB and EW is literally the exact same in SB, to just fight us. But we already did that. So why are we doing it again?

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Zenos said he wanted to die and even assuming he didn't quite literally "burn the candle of his life", it's stated that reaper avatars have a precedent for preying on their pact-bearers the moment their souls begin to wane, so I'm inclined to think he is actually dead and that the void shenanigans in the 6.1 trailer are linked to his avatar somehow.

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That's neat and all, but shouldn't that be included in the MSQ if that is really important.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Just curious on why they want more stories centered around Zenos, it would be his avatar but still i’m sure they’ll find some way to stick him back in.He’s beyond redundant, and i don’t see what’s so compelling about him to keep making stories with him and not characters that are way more interesting like some of the ancients.

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I hated Zenos redundancy until he came back at the end of endwalker and called me a loser for not killing Meteion yet. It finally gave me some sort of hope that this could be a interesting character.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I hated Zenos redundancy until he came back at the end of endwalker and called me a loser for not killing Meteion yet. It finally gave me some sort of hope that this could be a interesting character.

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LOL, yeah. When he said "I take it this is your prey. But what does it still live? Surely it is no match for you? I thought you above something so banal as despair." I took that personallhy. Never been so motivated to actually prove a villain right.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

his storyline in ShB and EW is literally the exact same in SB, to just fight us. But we already did that. So why are we doing it again?

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Lmao, hard disagree. Zenos is, like, the one character in EW who truly had a legitimate character development arc in EW. And it was great, weirdly touching (???), even, and I love him. Listen, the Scions may like me a lot, but ultimately it's because my actions align with their interests. Zenos, post-character development, has my back even if he and his interests don't give a shit about my current activities. In a lot of ways, Zenos is the one character who aligns perfectly with EW's attempted themes.

Bestie is the best bestie!

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

That's neat and all, but shouldn't that be included in the MSQ if that is really important.

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Exactly. Everything that could have made the character interesting in game was relegated to side stories locked behind books that are never in print and Q&A questions that just happen to get answered. If you hadn't done the RPR questline you wouldn't even know that about an avatar and the soul. They handled his character terribly. But I still love my best friend.

I still can't believe they just casually explained him having dreams of the Final Days as "because he's Emet-Selch's great-grandson..." People were out here thinking he'd been experimented on in the womb and all kinds of wild stuff. But they never even bothered to put that information in the game, just matter-of-factly "duh, he's related to an Ascian". Imagine if no one had asked that question? We may never have known.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s surprising to me. I just find him dull personally, i see him as adding nothing to the story, he killed off and outlasted characters who had way more potential and depth to them, and in the end his storyline in ShB and EW is literally the exact same in SB, to just fight us. But we already did that. So why are we doing it again?

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I've(a Zenos fan) have always saw Zenos as the antithesis to the WoL. While the WoL fought for the betterment of all, Zenos fought for his own enjoyment. He was our Vegeta in all but name, we overcame him in Stormblood and every since then he was trying to get his win back.

I believe his story suffered from a lot of the buildup from the 5.x patches with little payoff in 6.0 til the very end when his speech was my favorite part of the whole story.... But I do worry that he's becoming 14's Seymour and if we do have to face his Reaper Avatar down the line is actually the Avatar and not the Avatar wearing a Zenos suit.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Lmao, hard disagree. Zenos is, like, the one character in EW who truly had a legitimate character development arc in EW. And it was great, weirdly touching (???), even, and I love him. Listen, the Scions may like me a lot, but ultimately it's because my actions align with their interests. Zenos, post-character development, has my back even if he and his interests don't give a shit about my current activities. In a lot of ways, Zenos is the one character who aligns perfectly with EW's attempted themes.

Bestie is the best bestie!

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I didn’t really notice it much tbh. Like people say his whole waiting to fight us until after we beat meteion was development but…i feel like that’s just him not being dumb? Can’t fight us if Meteion destroys the planet. He just seemed the same ole wants to fight us to fight us cuz that’s all he likes. I didn’t see what it added to the story at all. He also caused the destruction of garlemald which had far more interesting people than him so :p To each their own though.

I guess also its just, what was the point of bringing him back? If it was gonna be the same ole thing. I wish i had the option to turn down his fight at the end of EW tbh lol. Why give him what he doesnt deserve.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Just curious on why they want more stories centered around Zenos, it would be his avatar but still i’m sure they’ll find some way to stick him back in.He’s beyond redundant, and i don’t see what’s so compelling about him to keep making stories with him and not characters that are way more interesting like some of the ancients.

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Zenos is that one little cockroach that just doesn't seem to go away no matter how hard you try.