You are an absolute trip. You clearly haven't read the whole thread or you are simply ignoreing everything Sharrazisspecial has posted. Dunno which, and don't care at this point because I am exhausted speaking to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApolloGenX
OMG Give us an AOE heal that is not worthless!
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10-08-2013, 06:45 AMAlu79
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10-08-2013, 06:49 AMsharazisspecial2 sch need to be able to heal 1400-1900 per cast. Ok i cant remember how much the enrage ticks for accurately. Youtube shows it ticking as high as 1900 or as low as 900 which i assumed is due to damage being blocked by adloquium.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApolloGenX
1 sch+1whm =fine
320 +680+220medica 2 tick=1220 hp healed + 320 damage blocked
2 whm =fine
680+680 +440 medica 2 tick=1800 hp healed
2 sch= fail
320+320=640 healed 320 blocked -
10-08-2013, 06:51 AMApolloGenXYou mean the fuzzy math, right? You have read the other comments in the thread that have questions about it, right? I realize that you prefer speculative math that conveniently agrees with your assertations, but data is the best way to show a less ... biased example of the issue at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alu79
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10-08-2013, 06:56 AMApolloGenXSnipped out irrelevant part.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharazisspecial
So you are showing that the lack of stacking shields creates a situation where scholar output isn't enough to meet the encounter requirements.
Of course the next step is to take to adequately geared scholars and find out what they actually output... and if it is possible what gear is required to do it, yes? Then you can show that the content is not doable at the appropriate gear level, and something must be fixed.
(Personally, I like boosting the pet AE heal, and with UI improvements being able to control when it is cast, preferably via macro-but that requires a pet fix first) -
10-08-2013, 06:59 AMsharazisspecialPeople a use gear argument to justify warrior being terrible and left out every raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApolloGenX
Warrior tank currently gets one shot by bosses
Paladin tank groups currently have coil 1-4 on farm.
What makes you think that full ilvl70 and a relic weapon is not enough to beat coil 1-4? because it is and coil seems tuned for that gear level.
Why is the aoe damage of turn 4 healable by 2 whm , 1 whm 1 sch but not 2sch? It because 2 sch is under powered and not do not aoe heal enough without a whm due to shield mechanics.
Anyways i think that a relic + ilvl70 sch heals like 320hp/320shield succor. A relic ilvl70 whm heals like 665 medica. Due to whm much higher base mind.
Watch videos of coil 4 near the end. See how much the damage is ticking for. But keep in mind that succor is blocked some of the damages. So it appears lower then it actully is ocassioanly. Then you can do the math and see how the fight is mathematically impossible for 2 sch . Which is unbalanced.
1 sch can block 320, heal 320 damage
1 whm can heal with medica 665 damage and medica 2 regen for 230.
Now i cant remember if it necessary to pop divine seal for this part to heal enough. I also am not taking into account the food or party buff that improved healing or if mantra is required too. -
10-08-2013, 08:28 AMProfessor_JoJo
but counting the crit heal and adding a crit bubble equivalent to it is in my books considered a critical bubble.
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10-08-2013, 08:33 AMsharazisspecialJojo did even read the thread or even play/know anything about sch? why even mention crits whenQuote:
Originally Posted by Professor_JoJo
1. Succor does not get double shields. Succor's crit shields are equal to critical heal.
2. current base crit chance is around 20% and every +16 crit rating adds 1% crit rate. Gearing for crit require alot of time and mythos atm. Especially since sch relic has spell speed instead off crit. So currently crit rate is low and not something that can be reliable at all. Even if you manage to get fully geared in allagan/af2 somehow crit would be around 35-38%. Gearing for crit means lower other stats such as det which means lower non crit heals. -
10-08-2013, 10:04 AMApolloGenX
Right, and I don't think anyone is disputing that when there are two scholars one suffers essentially 50 percent loss on thier AE heal. I am just saying that showing the data might help quantify exactly how much the second scholar loses.
Two whms don't suffer a penalty, that's really all that needs to be said- now we should try to figure out how much the penalty really ends up being for 2nd scholar and figure out a way around that without fundamentally changing how the SCH heals or greatly affecting single SCH healing ability. -
10-08-2013, 10:14 AMsharazisspecialAnd 50% loss to adloquiumQuote:
Originally Posted by ApolloGenX
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10-08-2013, 12:38 PMCrescent_DuskIt's not just 2 scholars.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApolloGenX
For some reason WHM keep comparing Succor to Medica when it really has to compare to the HP return of Medica II.
No, Whispering Dawn does not have the potency of WHM regen, and even if the cd were halved it is not ON DEMAND AOE. It has a cooldown. It can't be spammed for every aoe phase. There will be aoe regen downtime for the scholar. There will not be aoe regen downtime for the white mage -- they can cast it whenever.
It's quite simple. Bring a Scholar and a WHM. Prohibit the WHM from using Medica II and see how you do in AoE phases. That's currently what Scholar is -- a WHM with no Medica II tool to cope with aoe damage.
You are ENTIRELY dependent on the WHM to get the raid back up with a Medica II. Medica II is not an optional tool -- it is MANDATORY. -
10-09-2013, 04:36 AMApolloGenXThe issue with balancing the fairy group heal is that is it mana free... so it wouldn't really be possible to just give it a regular cast time without reducing potency even further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk
Having a CD on it (a shorter one) would allow at least some potency boost perhaps... and a fix to the pet UI where you could toggle autouse of abilities would make it an on demand ability.
The problem is that you can't just say that the pet regen should be able to be up all the time at the same potency as medica 2, because it is mp free. Having it up frequently and less potent than medica 2 (but still adequate to help fill in the gaps) is imo the best solution.
As far as the issue with adlo and succor not stacking- that is a separate class mechanics issue. It does need be addressed in a way that affects SCH x 2, but not single SCH healing. -
10-09-2013, 04:51 AMErianeIn any fight where Medica 2 is used you have time to let it tick. Scholars can heal two targets at once and with a little communication can heal a raid, moreso if fairies cd's are alternated. Not optimal but scholars are doing it. Plus they have damage reduction via skills like virus, eye and soil not to mention preshielding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk
And no, succor does not need to be medica 2. If scholars raid heal as effectively as a white mage with no mana issues or threat issues why would anyone play a whm. Regardless of individual opinions on effective health via shielding the mechanic exists. If you don't like proactive healing roll a whm. Hope you have a good tank and bard. -
10-09-2013, 06:50 AMAlu79People like this one here are the reason why classes that need help never get it. They assume classes are fine as is as if the almighty Devs don't screw up ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriane
Never mind this was a class that never got beta tested, or that 2 SCH have to jump through so many hoops on top of group playing flawlessly, or that the utility that people keep spouting on about are easily available to WHM, Or that the Fairy is buggy, has crap AI, the listed potencies for the Fairy are actually MUCH weaker than player versions, that Succor actually doesn't get crit shields the way Adlo does, or that there are too many skills that use charges, charges that you can only use 3 times a minute.
No, SCH are perfect as is obviously. Well, fine from a WHM's perspective right? Isn't that all that matters? -
10-09-2013, 07:24 AMNoriega
I dont know if this means much, but the other languages are monitoring this thread as well and some are seemingly in agreement that scholar is at the very least, inferiour to WHM (and the pet being unsatisfactory)
So, assuming SE does listen to vocals, i can see something being done with scholar at least with QOL. -
10-09-2013, 07:42 AMErianeThis isn't the first thread on this, I was referring to scholars on these very forums who responded to posts that literally asked the same question, how do two scholars heal? Also, I'm pretty sure I've mentioned on this forum several times that pet needs fixes, and that sch/sch issues need to be addressed. The post was specific to a post saying succor needs the potency of medica 2Quote:
Originally Posted by Alu79
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10-09-2013, 07:53 AMNoctrin
If SE thinks SCH is fine at harder difficulties, they must not play the class. Anyone that thinks SCH is fine for damage heavy encounters has not played it, or has never compared it with an equally competent WHM. I like the class design, i think it should be unique and i believe an ideal composition should have a 1:1 ratio of WHM to SCH, but, SE really needs to give us some better scaling and fix a plethora of issues with the pets for SCH to be on par with WHM. I've said this many times, based on the huge oversights and bugs on pets alone, this class was not tested properly at all and was clearly rushed to meet deadlines. The class isn't terrible or useless and it's easy enough to fix. I have no idea how the pet bugs are still here when they really don't require much more than some toggles for skills, stances to actually persist and the range for embrace to be fixed and the ability to issue commands while casting. That alone would make a big difference.
Just being able to use our fairy heal buff and regen properly would cover a large chunk of our lack of aoe healing by the pet adding a bit more and the WHM and us being able to heal an extra 20%. But due to how terribly unreliable pet control is, it's tricky to pull off correctly and can easily be screwed up. The pet not moving like an idiot to get in the range it should have will fill in the gaps for squishies to make sure they get topped up a bit faster to prevent an accidental death, with rouse, it can heal for quite a bit. On paper, it makes for a great combo and mechanic.
Gives us double shield on crit for succor and the ability to boost crit a bit more than we currently can. Or take target max hp into account for shield, and i'd be really happy with the class.
Ability to macro embrace such that the pet can do it's own thing, but if i need extra healing on a target, i can order my pet to heal whoever i'm on and cancel whatever it was doing, would put us on par for st healing with a WHM, maybe even a bit on top. -
10-09-2013, 08:33 AMsharazisspecial
They should put double shield on crit. Especially since ignorant whm keep saying succor fine because of double shields(even though it doesnt have double shields)
This wouldnt fix much though nor would it let sch heal fights they couldnt before. So it isnt needed or a solution.
The best and most balanced fix is two options.
1.Let up to 3 sch shields stack. So raids can take up to 3 sch before being penalised.
The problem with whm is that not only does it have stacking effects . it also has 300 potency medica and 650 potency cure 2. So another whm would always be more desirable over more then one sch because sch tank and aoe heal potency is halved when there is anther sch in the pt. Whereas whm potency remains same.
If se decide to balance 2 x sch by just making regen abilties unable to stack and no other changes .5 whm 1sch pts would still be optimal because sch potency still gets halved if there is already a shield on the target. so se need to let 2-3 sch stack so they have a unique niche.
2. If people say that is op then the only way to make more then 1 sch viable would be to nerf whm regen stacking then change sch succor and adloquium to heal full potency(300 and 600) if there is another shield on the target. This would also allow sch to be a raid healer instead of always being the tank healer while the whm picks up the slack. If there is no whm in the pt there is no raid healer sch need to be able to perform the role at around whm level since whm can tank heal just as well as sch. -
10-09-2013, 12:42 PMTrynil
i kind of skimed over the first page but if anything the two healers work well together white mage can easy over heal but go oom while sch can mantain a good amount of mana with good heals and do some dps if the group skill/gear allowes. to me its like priest vs. mystic in tera priest was the better healer when your group sucked and would take lots of dmg but the mystic could improve dps in better groups making the boss go down faster. if you take ak with same dps and tank and just swap heals with like ilvl im sure the sch group will finish faster with the extra dps. but in the end i think they work well together in 8 man groups.
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10-09-2013, 12:51 PMApolloGenXNumber 1 is why whms get irritated- because what a surprise it's "nerf whms"Quote:
Originally Posted by sharazisspecial
Number 2- This isn't a bad idea... double your heal as long as someone ELSE has a shield on the target (and you don't leave a shield obviously). That wouldn't change solo SCH play, as it would work the same... it would only affect multiple SCH hitting each other's shields. I don't see a problem with that. Shields clearly wouldn't stack with this option, either. (But they wouldn't need to)
This is actually much different than the "convert to medica" if you hit your own shield. Solo SCH isn't the problem, it's multiples... and this would help with that and only that. -
10-09-2013, 12:54 PMsharazisspecial
Apollogenx dont u think 6 regen and 6medica2 stacking would be ridiculous.
At most it should be 3 of each effect stacking. which is what wow and gw2 limits it too.
6 medica 2 is a 600 potency regen which is like a cure2 every 3 seconds on the raid
6 medica2 + 6 regen on tanks would be a 1500 potency regen which is around 3807 hp (in my current gear relic+1 and 3 ilvl90) every 3 seconds for only 2 gcds of each whm. -
10-09-2013, 10:58 PMApolloGenXI'm not sure when you would be taking 6 healers. If you are taking that many healers, your healing probably should be ridiculous... your dps is going to be in the toilet.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharazisspecial
I don't understand. You went from wanting to fix a scholar issue to now complaining about white mages in some circumstance where either 3/4 or 1/4 of your 8 man or 24 man raid is whms.
Do 6 medicas or regens stack? I really don't have a problem with limiting the number of stacks. Of course, then I would also say- just like the scholar mechanic- if it won't stack because you hit someone else's regen, add it to the heal.
You can see how this is a bit frustrating. You put forth an idea to fix something- it is a good idea. Now, suddenly you want more... without even knowing how that idea and pet fixes impacts things. As you can see, I really am not against fixing the scholar... I am just wary of unending calls for buffs. -
10-09-2013, 11:04 PMEriane
I think he is assuming having 6 healers in a 24 man raid, which as far as i know isn't the case. Its three 8 man raids working together, not a 24 man raid. So its irrelevant. We won't know if 24 raid mans will come and what the mechanics will be.
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10-09-2013, 11:33 PMApolloGenXRight... because even in that extreme with 6 sch fairies spamming the MT mana free that would be crazy healing... extremes tend to be... extreme.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriane
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10-10-2013, 12:06 AMAlu79Wait, did you just compare the Fairy to regen? Really? lol..Quote:
Originally Posted by ApolloGenX
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10-10-2013, 12:15 AMApolloGenXNo? Can you quote where I compared anything? *LULZ*Quote:
Originally Posted by Alu79
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10-10-2013, 12:20 AMAlu79Right here you made the comparison...Quote:
Originally Posted by ApolloGenX
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10-10-2013, 12:25 AMApolloGenXUhh no, I didn't mention regen at all- I said if you have 6 sch mp free tank healing would be crazy. I was just pointing out that extremes are extreme... there was no spell comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alu79
Here's how you can tell: I never used the word regen. I never used the words "more than", "like", "greater", or any other comparative words.