Yoshi P - Your next live letter, DT msq and the damage to the brand

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Originally Posted by Volgia

LMAO. 1.0? Get out of here, man.

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Did you play 1.0? I certainly did, I'd have 1.0 in heartbeat over DT

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Originally Posted by IvoryHawk

With WoW's new expac coming out in like 5 days instead of the usual within the same time as FFXIV's expansions/patches (which i think would have been terrible for FFXIV this time around if that did happen) it'll be interesting to see the drop off, i know a lot of people i play with ditching 14 for it.

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yeah i dont know what the big idea was too be that close. I hope that wow will not kill my mood as DT did. i dropped 14 basicly after 2 weeks came back for raid and instantly quit again havent even bothered to lvl my classes like i normaly do... but people like me are "doomposters" anyway so i fly away :) the live letter itself will be fun to see because they will do nothing piss off the already pissed people and try to move on.

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Originally Posted by Lollerblades

Did you play 1.0? I certainly did, I'd have 1.0 in heartbeat over DT

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There's people with bad taste and people who is objectively wrong. You are part of the second group.

Dawntrail is ass because the game is 90% story, and the story sections are an absolute slog. The gameplay sections are beyond what 1.0 had to offer.

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Originally Posted by Lollerblades

Did you play 1.0? I certainly did, I'd have 1.0 in heartbeat over DT

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Isn't playing and 1.0 in the same sentence an oxymoron ? ... at least it was the first week :3

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Originally Posted by Syln

Isn't playing and 1.0 in the same sentence an oxymoron ? ... at least it was the first week :3

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Bring back the potted plants with such a high poly count they caused high-end systems (for 14 years ago) to chug to single digit FPS counts.

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Originally Posted by Aldath

There's people with bad taste and people who is objectively wrong. You are part of the second group.

Dawntrail is ass because the game is 90% story, and the story sections are an absolute slog. The gameplay sections are beyond what 1.0 had to offer.

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Yea I felt like I was watching tv instead of playing a game. They also played the story way too safe as every opportunity to have a twist they took the safe and predictable route.

Now granted, I appreciate skipping some mundane stuff but not all of it.

At the rate they are going, they are approaching the point where they could release the MSQ on Netflix as a series before the expansion and then just have dungeons, raids and trials get released.

https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...fb4129cf5bda50

Pax West approaches.
Likely just a promotional presentation, can't see them answering any of the player concerns with DT this early on.
But you never know.

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Originally Posted by Aldath

There's people with bad taste and people who is objectively wrong. You are part of the second group.

Dawntrail is ass because the game is 90% story, and the story sections are an absolute slog. The gameplay sections are beyond what 1.0 had to offer.

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I'm not part of any group, but you crack on with your foolishness.

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Originally Posted by Lollerblades

Did you play 1.0? I certainly did, I'd have 1.0 in heartbeat over DT

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I'll put up with a very lackluster MSQ over ever going back to the completely broken mess that was 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Elaithe

This is such an absurd post it's hard to even like fully comprehend that a serious person is actually saying this stuff.

They put out 10 years of bangers, start a new story from scratch, and y'all can't even let them get past the opener before calling it a failure.

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Honestly, this. Would I have liked to see Krile & Erenville get more screen time for their part of the story? Sure! Did some things feel rushed? Maybe. But we’re not even to the first patch yet! And there are a lot of seeds sown for a number of different turns the story could take.

This is the first chapter of a new story arc, so I expected a lot of setup. And while some might not feel the setup expac is as exciting as other expansions, you don’t get the payoff of a Shadowbringers without the beginnings set up in ARR. While there are some good critiques here and there (more things could have been solo duty or active participation instead of just cutscenes, for instance), the story itself wasn’t a bad story, and many people outside of these forums playing the game are enjoying it. For my part, there’s been plenty of times over the years where I’ve wondered where they could possibly be going with the story, and I haven’t been disappointed yet.

Beyond the MSQ, this expansion has given us some of the best dungeons and trials, double dyes, gorgeous new zones and gear, some excellent new music… there are definitely some other things to address as they continue to update in-game systems for the next decade, and I’ll be there adding my 2 cents to those conversations where I see them, but imho they’re off to a good start story-wise.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I'll put up with a very lackluster MSQ over ever going back to the completely broken mess that was 1.0.

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I'll politely agree to disagree. You're entitled to your opinion.

Yeah, no.

Bad story is bad.
Lack of character development is lack of character development.
Plotholes and random power spikes are... You get the point.

Being a first chapter of a story is no excuse. They can "sow seeds" and still give us a good product.

Shadowbringers sowed the seeds for a new big bad (Meteion), Dynamis and the Final Days - concepts we had never heard of, while still delivering a first class, compelling story.

Yeah, yeah, we knew what an Ascian was beforehand. Other than that, that expansion's key players are quite comparable.

1. Emet-Selch, a new villain, was built into a relatable fan favourite from the ground up. Same cannot be said for Sphene.
2. Ardbert, a minor character from a past expansion, tagged along with us, was given a compelling backstory, motives, development and side characters. Erenville was there, I guess?
3. Thancred, a relatively minor Scion in the sense he never did much and had no personality beyond "womanizer", was made into a fully fledged character and had an amazing personal story with a beginning, middle and end. In DT Krile.. tagged along.
4. Ryne was the new addition to the cast, but unlike Wuk Lamat her power ups made sense and she never overstayed her welcome or overshadowed others.
5. The Al-twins and Y'shtola were there, but unlike DT had their own stories and side characters.

Yeah, sure, failures happen and maybe the subsequent patches will be a course-correction and we will get back to the previous greatness. But it's not just DT's story - EW's patch quests were way below par as well, so let's be honest, FF14 has not delivered an S-tier story since December 2021.

I love the game too, but no need to be an apologist for the failure that is the DT MSQ.

Yoshi P: "There's so much exiting things coming in the future, the team is working hard, please look forward to it, we hope you are enjoying Dawntrail, arigatou gozaimazuuu"

Guaranteed, nothing more, nothing less.

What to look for is not the live letter response but changes, if any, for the story moving forward. If there are no changes, it’s going to be a very bad sign.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Yoshi P: "There's so much exiting things coming in the future, the team is working hard, please look forward to it, we hope you are enjoying Dawntrail, arigatou gozaimazuuu"

Guaranteed, nothing more, nothing less.

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Yeah prolly. People are in the game and enjoying it. He's not gonna get on all fours and beg and plead cuz some forum dwellers are angy.

I see these forums are no different than the WoW forums. One forum poster cries bad expansion and the rest follow without any single thought as in the unfortunate case with modern gaming nowadays. I blame social media for that. . I, myself and halfway through the MSQ and throughly enjoy it. Just because Steam and Metacritic call Dawntrail bad... doesn't make it bad. I remember a certain Dragon Ball movie that review sites praised the hell out of, and to this day Dragon Ball fans still call it a stain on the franchise. Review sites aren't the iron fist of gaming opinions. They are there to give you insight into what the reviewer feels about a game, but their opinion isn't law. It's there for you to form your own opinion and take their opinion with a grain of salt.

As for Dawntrails MSQ, opinions aside, some of them look as they are calling an expansion bad because the story isn't up to par or the characters aren't interesting. That doesn't singlehandedly make an expansion bad wholefully but it'll just make that part of the expansion disliked. You don't like the story or characters for whatever reason, thats you, not everybody else. Players can dislike characters while others like them. Players can dislike the story while others like the story. That is still allowed to be a thing.. just saying.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I'll put up with a very lackluster MSQ over ever going back to the completely broken mess that was 1.0.

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Id rather put up with tanking in 1.19, rather than tank with DRK in any version that wasnt HWs version of DRK.

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Originally Posted by Syekai

I see these forums are no different than the WoW forums. One forum poster cries bad expansion and the rest follow without any single thought as in the unfortunate case with modern gaming nowadays. I blame social media for that. . I, myself and halfway through the MSQ and throughly enjoy it. Just because Steam and Metacritic call Dawntrail bad... doesn't make it bad. I remember a certain Dragon Ball movie that review sites praised the hell out of, and to this day Dragon Ball fans still call it a stain on the franchise. Review sites aren't the iron fist of gaming opinions. They are there to give you insight into what the reviewer feels about a game, but their opinion isn't law. It's there for you to form your own opinion and take their opinion with a grain of salt.

As for Dawntrails MSQ, opinions aside, some of them look as they are calling an expansion bad because the story isn't up to par or the characters aren't interesting. That doesn't singlehandedly make an expansion bad wholefully but it'll just make that part of the expansion disliked. You don't like the story or characters for whatever reason, thats you, not everybody else. Players can dislike characters while others like them. Players can dislike the story while others like the story. That is still allowed to be a thing.. just saying.

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I think that's the problem, the big WoW exodus that happened during the end of Shadowbringers brought a lot of them over here and with it a lot of their personality.

Unfortunately I don't think we'll get much of anything about the state of the current Dawntrail MSQ with the next live letter. If we do, they'll probably just say that Dawntrail was a huge success and so many people love it and just ignore the bad parts. It'll be a miracle and a half if Yoshi-P actually does mention the reaction to the Dawntrail MSQ, and even then it'll be more of a miracle if he goes into detail and it's not just something blunt like "We hear your feedback and we'll work on it as the patches release' or something to that effect. Really shouldn't be expecting too much overall and should just be preparing to babysit Wuk Lamat for the next two years of patches during the post-MSQ.

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Originally Posted by ZXN

...just be preparing to babysit Wuk Lamat for the next two years of patches during the post-MSQ.

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https://64.media.tumblr.com/fd4196b3...03178ef918.gif

With the lack of healers (green river) in PF on the JP servers (and NA/EU), I'm sure Yoshi-P will beg players to please try healers, again, instead of, ya know, addressing the concerns and issues players have about the state of role in his MMO.

"We noticed that Wuk Lamat google trend was skyrocketing since the release of our masterpiece Frowntrail, thus we decided to center the game even more around her and will rewrite previous expansion to introduce her in a way that befit more such an important, well written and beloved character .... also we are announcing today that a ff16 DLC dedicated to her is on its way, please look forward to it."

Due to previous msq rewriting the next expansion launch will be postponed until further notice. That's priorities for you !"

here's what he ACTUALLY said:

“I think this time with the lineup of characters that we had, they all have their own personalities, and that shone across – we really made a good start.”

“For Wuk Evu, I knew that there would be people who love him and those who hate him. I’m sure there must be people who are thinking, ‘Oh man, this guy’s just too persistent!’ But of course if our staff just try to create characters that will be loved by everyone, it just ends up that they are almost like a template character.”

link to the article: https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fanta...hida-interview

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Originally Posted by Uncle_Jafar

here's what he ACTUALLY said:

“I think this time with the lineup of characters that we had, they all have their own personalities, and that shone across – we really made a good start.”

“For Wuk Evu, I knew that there would be people who love him and those who hate him. I’m sure there must be people who are thinking, ‘Oh man, this guy’s just too persistent!’ But of course if our staff just try to create characters that will be loved by everyone, it just ends up that they are almost like a template character.”

link to the article: https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fanta...hida-interview

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I think the most interesting thing is that Wuk lamat isn't mentioned at all.
Normally they would give a comment or two like "we were really nervous with a Hrothgar or having a character so much in the story but are happy players seem to like her". (like with interview in 6.55)
Not this time though. Instead Wuk Evu is mentioned. I think they have gotten the feedback.

I still find the most funny that they are surprised by Bakool JaJa's and Honey Bee's reception and really wonder what they thought the initial reception of them and Wuk lamat would have been like.
Honey Bee pushes all the japanese idol buttons and Bakool is the enemy turning good trope that is usually well recieved.

Tldr:
I think the most telling thing is Wuk Lamat not being mentioned at all.
Interesting interview.

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Originally Posted by Uncle_Jafar

here's what he ACTUALLY said:

“I think this time with the lineup of characters that we had, they all have their own personalities, and that shone across – we really made a good start.”

“For Wuk Evu, I knew that there would be people who love him and those who hate him. I’m sure there must be people who are thinking, ‘Oh man, this guy’s just too persistent!’ But of course if our staff just try to create characters that will be loved by everyone, it just ends up that they are almost like a template character.”

link to the article: https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fanta...hida-interview

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Bit lame that the interviewer didn't ask about Wuk Lamat and the community's reaction to her. I think that's what most people want to hear his opinion on.

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Originally Posted by Carolingian

Bit lame that the interviewer didn't ask about Wuk Lamat and the community's reaction to her. I think that's what most people want to hear his opinion on.

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good point but its game journalism so probably not a real interview. just softball questions that are "allowed" to promote the new expansion.

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Originally Posted by Carolingian

Bit lame that the interviewer didn't ask about Wuk Lamat and the community's reaction to her. I think that's what most people want to hear his opinion on.

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Because everyone already has the pulse for that mixed bag of a topic. Camp 1 dislikes her, camp 2 likes her, camp 3 is not interested in the topic. Plus the questions very likely had to get screened ahead of time for what would be fine to ask.

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Originally Posted by Uncle_Jafar

link to the article: https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fanta...hida-interview

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Thanks for the article. The non-existent Wuk Lamat being mentioned is very interesting. I really do think it's going to turn into a Rose-Alisha Controversey again, I just hope Japan doesn't attack the JP VA over it. The next LL is very important, if he dodges/avoids talking about Wuk Lamat and she is still super prominent in the following patches then I feel it will go down the Controversey route. We'll get lies about which character was suppose to be focused on, from Krile have importance to it's actually about Wuk. Saying their teams had miscommunication, and that it was supposed to be about Wuk all along and not Krile or Erenville etc, like how Alisha was referred to as the Heroine of Zestiria in the Astiria mobile game and was shown second to Sorey, even had a model and dlc and more advertisement for her. It seems to be going down that route, but at least we'll get some good drama to talk about I guess.

I think poochie could be hidden in this sentence TBH.

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Originally Posted by Yoshida

They do say you can’t please all the people all the time, after all – truly memorable characters tend to be the bold ones, and that boldness will often end up splitting opinion.

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Memorable as in... Ja Ja Binks.

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Originally Posted by Willemdarke

Bad story is bad.

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Your own personal opinion is not a fact. Sorry.

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Lack of character development is lack of character development.

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True. Also irrelevant, given how DT has considerable character development, especially for Wuk Lumat, Koana, Bakool Ja Ja, and even Zoraal Ja though in a "negative" direction.

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Yeah, yeah, we knew what an Ascian was beforehand. Other than that, that expansion's key players are quite comparable.

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This part and everything that followed was amusing. "Shadowbringers didn't need old things to build on" --> proceeds to point out how 4 of the 5 "top" things from the story built on old things. Seriously...

Also, Thancred was never a "minor" Scion. He was one of the originals who played a big role in ARR both looking out for Minfilia and ultimately getting possessed by Lahabrea.

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Yeah, sure, failures happen and maybe the subsequent patches will be a course-correction and we will get back to the previous greatness. But it's not just DT's story - EW's patch quests were way below par as well, so let's be honest, FF14 has not delivered an S-tier story since December 2021.

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Let's truly be honest. This is nothing more and nothing less than your own personal opinion. I would actually agree with it, but I'd also point out that I would never expect patch content or the first installment of an entire new story arc to be S-tier. That's just not realistic. You get S-tier content as the payoff for a steady build up to it. The most I would expect patch content or a new story to be is A-tier, and for me, DT is 100% A-tier.

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Originally Posted by EdwinChucklenuts

I think that's the problem, the big WoW exodus that happened during the end of Shadowbringers brought a lot of them over here and with it a lot of their personality.

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Meh, this forum has been an echo chamber of negativity since long before the WoW exodus. Every expansion is the worst thing ever when it comes out, and posts are full of the usual cabal trashing it and seemingly thinking the only way to feel good is to belittle others. I feel sad for them, actually.

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Bad story is bad.

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A story can be objectively bad, due to many thing, pathing, writting, incoherence... And anyone can like a bad story.
I will not say it's the case for Dawntrail, in my case it's mid but just treat character that I love badly, starting with my own, so I don't like it.

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True. Also irrelevant, given how DT has considerable character development, especially for Wuk Lumat, Koana, Bakool Ja Ja, and even Zoraal Ja though in a "negative" direction.

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I'm sincerely curious about it, can you tell me more ? Because I don't see "considerable character development" about any of them.

• Wuk Lamat stop being insecure and that's it for her character development. She is still all about peace, love and family even with Sphene when she basically decided to become a genocidal AI.
• Koana always had a soft spot for his sister, still has and still want to import technological advancement to Tural, he just accept not to totally erase tradition, which isn't much either.
• Bakool Ja Ja don't have character development, he just isn't the same character at all after one discussion with Wuk Lamat and one revelation (The same one that basically launch a nuke into Tural without being sure that anyone could stop it).
• And Zoraal Ja was just bitter prodigal son from the beginning to the end, we were even spoiled by Krile.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Your own personal opinion is not a fact. Sorry.

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DT is the single worst reviewed expansion in FF14's history. This is not an opinion, it's a fact.
It is so bad that even popular streamers whose income depends on the games they cover doing well can't pretend to like it. This is not me saying their opinions matter more, it's pointing out the fact that even people who usually fake their opinions can't do in this case.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

True. Also irrelevant, given how DT has considerable character development, especially for Wuk Lumat, Koana, Bakool Ja Ja, and even Zoraal Ja though in a "negative" direction.

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Please elaborate. I'm not being sarcastic, I'd genuinely prefer to have my mind changed so I, too, can enjoy this story. Sadly from where I'm standing 'remaining virtually the same' is the arc most of these characters got.
Wow, Wuk Lamat is no longer utterly terrified of alpacas. Bakool's personality did a 180 from a genocidal playground bully to defender of the meek in the span of a single quest during which he did nothing, but explain his backstory. So compelling.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

This part and everything that followed was amusing. "Shadowbringers didn't need old things to build on" --> proceeds to point out how 4 of the 5 "top" things from the story built on old things. Seriously...

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I didn't list 'top things' in the story. I listed a few characters who can easily have 1 to 1 direct comparisons with DT characters in terms of story presense, development and character arcs (or lack there of in DT's case).

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Also, Thancred was never a "minor" Scion. He was one of the originals who played a big role in ARR both looking out for Minfilia and ultimately getting possessed by Lahabrea.

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Please. Arguably every scion, except for Alphi, was a 'minor Scion' pre-ShB.
Literally who, except Alphi (Urianger in HW post-MSQ and Lyse and Alysaie in SB) had any personal story, growth or development prior?

And yes, Thancred up to and including ShB is VERY much comparable to Krile up to and including DT. If you think Thancred being possessed was a compelling character arc FOR HIM, I guess everyone asking for Krile to have some development missed the amazing growth she had spending an expansion inside Zenos' test tube.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I'd also point out that I would never expect patch content or the first installment of an entire new story arc to be S-tier. That's just not realistic.

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ShB and HW post-MSQ were S-tier. SB was literally better than its base game. ARR was a dud, sure, but at least had an epic finale.
We went from Estinien/Nidhogg to Tsukuyomi to Elidibus to.... Rubicante? And the water one, what was his name?? Yes patch content can and absolutely should be as good as any other MSQ and EW underdelivered. Same for 'first chapters' - We are all here because the first chapter, ARR, managed to hook us in for the long run.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Meh, this forum has been an echo chamber of negativity since long before the WoW exodus. Every expansion is the worst thing ever when it comes out, and posts are full of the usual cabal trashing it

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It's a bit disingenuous to sweep valid negative feedback under the 'echo chamber' rug and.. 'cabal', really?

I think that's a little unfair to Thancred. His ARR possession is really underwhelming but the HW patch stuff where he's struggling with losing Minfilia feels real and rooted in his feelings of guilt re: her father's death. The burden he's taken upon himself to protect her, and his frustration that he's failed her. Yes, the arc continues in Shadowbringers, and Alphinaud and Estinien (and Ysayle and Hraesvelgr) have better HW character development, but give him a *little* credit.

When it comes to Wuk Lamat, I think it has become obvious the VA, Sena, is a public relations problem. I know patches are recorded and planned well in advance, so we should expect Wuk Lamat in 7.! and 7.2 at minimum, but I wouldn't be surprised if the game pivots from her character and that whole group anyway when we get the mid-post expansion pivot to 8.0. There really is no reason to keep Wuk Lamat around anyway.

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Originally Posted by Zackneifein

I'm sincerely curious about it, can you tell me more ? Because I don't see "considerable character development" about any of them.

• Wuk Lamat stop being insecure and that's it for her character development. She is still all about peace, love and family even with Sphene when she basically decided to become a genocidal AI.
• Koana always had a soft spot for his sister, still has and still want to import technological advancement to Tural, he just accept not to totally erase tradition, which isn't much either.
• Bakool Ja Ja don't have character development, he just isn't the same character at all after one discussion with Wuk Lamat and one revelation (The same one that basically launch a nuke into Tural without being sure that anyone could stop it).
• And Zoraal Ja was just bitter prodigal son from the beginning to the end, we were even spoiled by Krile.

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Perhaps it boils down to a matter of personal opinion, but here's my takes on those:

-Wuk Lumat does far more than just "stop being insecure." At story's opening, aside from her insecurity and complete lack of self-confidence, she also doesn't believe she actually has anything to bring to the table. She knows he has empathy, but she doesn't think it means anything. It's over the course of her journey that she comes to realize her empathy is a key trait, and one of the key things that made her father a good ruler, too. Furthermore, at first she only really knows about the various cultures of Tural through those who had moved to Tuliyollal. With each new feat, by actually traveling outside the capital to their actual homelands, she gains a huge amount of knowledge about the peoples that make up Tural.

-Koana's change from "innovation is everything" to "there is merit in balancing innovation with tradition" is a fundamental shift. To me, that is huge in a person. I'll also add that he goes the reverse of Wuk Lumat, starting as being over-confident and not realizing there are things he lacks, to reaching his own understanding that others bring important things to the table. He ends the journey a noticeably more humble person than when he started.

-Bakool Ja Ja could have made any number of choices after learning the truth of his society. Given his lifelong training as effectively a weapon, he could have gone down a similar path as Zoraal Ja. Instead, he chose to actively support those he had seen as "enemies" and put the people of Tuliyollal first in joining their defense, a complete change from the self-centered person he started as.

-Zoraal Ja was bitter, but did change significantly in the opposite direction as Bakool Ja Ja. Zoraal Ja was in charge of the military and still a major supporter of Tuliyollal despite his insecurity. He turns from that to actively killing them, and in the final trial, even shows a willingness to kill his own son. The change is in a "negative" direction, but the Zoraal Ja at the start of the story and the one at the end have changed significantly in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Willemdarke

DT is the single worst reviewed expansion in FF14's history. This is not an opinion, it's a fact.

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A "fact" that is just an agglomeration of opinions is worthless in that regard. And that's not even considering how statistically those "reviews" are just a voluntary sample, well-known for being the most unreliable approach to gathering accurate data.

Heck, if we want to go that route, I could point out the "fact" that DT had the highest sales of any FFXIV expansion. That's not an opinion; it's a fact.

Or I could point out how Steam data shows DT has had better retention of players after the first month than either EW or ShB did. That's also not an opinion; it's a fact.

I also believe the Steam data isn't really worth anything in general, so I wouldn't actually use it as "proof" of anything. Just like how the "reviews" you reference are meaningless when other metrics strongly suggest people are very much enjoying DT.

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It is so bad that even popular streamers whose income depends on the games they cover doing well can't pretend to like it. This is not me saying their opinions matter more, it's pointing out the fact that even people who usually fake their opinions can't do in this case.

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Or - shocking thought - they're just faking their opinions now because they know the specific segment of the population that is their followers wants people to hate on the game. I love how you seem to think they either could never genuinely enjoy the game, or just fake their opinions regularly, but when they happen to say what you specifically want to hear, now they *must* of course be telling nothing but the truth. L.O.L.

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Please elaborate. I'm not being sarcastic, I'd genuinely prefer to have my mind changed so I, too, can enjoy this story. Sadly from where I'm standing 'remaining virtually the same' is the arc most of these characters got.

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Check my post right above this one. I elaborated a bit on the "big four."

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Literally who, except Alphi (Urianger in HW post-MSQ and Lyse and Alysaie in SB) had any personal story, growth or development prior?

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I just have to chuckle when you yet again say "this didn't happen...well, except for all of these times that it did...just umm...don't count those..."

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ShB and HW post-MSQ were S-tier. SB was literally better than its base game. ARR was a dud, sure, but at least had an epic finale.

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These are - once again - just personal opinions. I fear we are just going to continue talking in circles until acknowledgment can be made separating opinions from facts.

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We went from Estinien/Nidhogg to Tsukuyomi to Elidibus to.... Rubicante? And the water one, what was his name??

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I think the more apt comparison there would be to Golbez, since you're naming the "biggest" player in each of the other scenarios.

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It's a bit disingenuous to sweep valid negative feedback under the 'echo chamber' rug and.. 'cabal', really?

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It's less a matter of "sweeping something under the rug" and more a matter of looking at it practically. When someone gives feedback about a specific piece of the game and provides a suggestion they'd like to see, it's useful. When someone goes to ridiculous hyperbole, trashes everything about the game, and demands they fundamentally change it to suit that person...that's an immature take from someone so far gone they really need to just move on for everyone's sake, including their own health. Same goes with personally insulting the developers, voice actors, etc., often with "arguments" that ultimately boil down to "you wrote a different story than the one I wanted, therefore it's bad and you're bad."

And yes, I think "cabal" is an apt word to describe what goes on around here. Look at how they cheer each other on and "upvote" comments en masse that just belittle the devs, other posters, etc.. When the group cheers on people acting like kids on a grade-school playground, I think they deserve to get called out on it. So yeah, by word choice fits I do believe.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Perhaps it boils down to a matter of personal opinion, but here's my takes on those:

-Wuk Lumat does far more than just "stop being insecure." At story's opening, aside from her insecurity and complete lack of self-confidence, she also doesn't believe she actually has anything to bring to the table. She knows he has empathy, but she doesn't think it means anything. It's over the course of her journey that she comes to realize her empathy is a key trait, and one of the key things that made her father a good ruler, too. Furthermore, at first she only really knows about the various cultures of Tural through those who had moved to Tuliyollal. With each new feat, by actually traveling outside the capital to their actual homelands, she gains a huge amount of knowledge about the peoples that make up Tural.

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There's a lot of people that don't see that considerable character development you're speaking of, and if there's that many people that don't see the main thing a character should be about, then it's a story problem, not an opinion difference.

I'll focus on Wuk Lamat, but this works for everyone.

Everything you said here, are things Wuk Lamat came out to us and told us. She said she was insecure, and didn't believe she had anything to offer. She told us she realized her love for the people was what she had in common with her father. She learned about the cultures, and told us how she was learning every single step of the way. Repeteadly.

But where is the proof of that? When do we SEE that change? How does any of that challenge her world view? Can you point out one moment where her misbelief of not being valuable and feeling inferior to her brothers, actually leads her to a wrong decision that make her realize she is wrong? Can you point out one moment where she was able to see her own value, other than we picking a dialogue choice that says "don't compare yourself to others" in the campfire scene?

When people talk about character development in stories, it actually involves change. The one internal conflict she had at the start, was not believing she was good enough. Where did that lack of confidence ever cause any trouble to her? Did she make any bad decisions based on that lack of confidence? The only notable change is that she stops talking about it, to then start talking more about how she loves peace and happiness instead, which she was already doing anyway. There are no changes in how she acts. We're told she is confident now, over and over, with dialogue, and dialogue only.

Considerable would be if she made bad decisions based on her lack of confidence, or that caused any kind of conflict to the story, if it guided her choices and actions, and then she had to confront her views with the consequences of her actions. Character development usually includes characters facing their fears and changing because of that. The most notable fear we see her confronting is boat travel.

Any guess on when the next LL be? About a month something?

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

There's a lot of people that don't see that considerable character development you're speaking of, and if there's that many people that don't see the main thing a character should be about, then it's a story problem, not an opinion difference.

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The playerbase is in the millions. The complaints are in the thousands. And, generally speaking, people commonly rant and complain, but don't praise. Like others have said... "just look at the forums and the active threads."

Exactly. Do just that. Then consider maybe 1 in a 1000 have issues. Maybe even 1 in 100. If 99 of my customers are happy and 1 isn't, I'm doing a great job.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

-Wuk Lumat does far more than just "stop being insecure." At story's opening, aside from her insecurity and complete lack of self-confidence, she also doesn't believe she actually has anything to bring to the table. She knows he has empathy, but she doesn't think it means anything....

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I can see what you are saying, but understanding that her empathy is her strongest trait is what I said, she just stopped being insecure about her qualities. That's weak when it come to character development. She is never confronted with clear hostility that will make her think other than Zoraal Ja who is a genocidal war freak who is clearly wrong, everyone end up loving her, even those who where hostile to Bakool Ja Ja.

Her character arc is that she was everything Bakool Ja Ja wanted as a successor, but lacked self-confidence. At the end she is validated about everything. It's like saying "perfectionist" as a default trait during a job interview.

Gaining knowledge about the culture of her people isn't character development, that's just learning things. She doesn't change because of that.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

-Koana's change from "innovation is everything" to "there is merit in balancing innovation with tradition" is a fundamental shift. To me, that is huge in a person. I'll also add that he goes the reverse of Wuk Lumat, starting as being over-confident and not realizing there are things he lacks, to reaching his own understanding that others bring important things to the table. He ends the journey a noticeably more humble person than when he started.

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Fundamental therorically, but far too easily done.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

-Bakool Ja Ja could have made any number of choices after learning the truth of his society. Given his lifelong training as effectively a weapon, he could have gone down a similar path as Zoraal Ja. Instead, he chose to actively support those he had seen as "enemies" and put the people of Tuliyollal first in joining their defense, a complete change from the self-centered person he started as.

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I understand, but once again it's far to easy for him to switch from "bully that is ready to drop bombs on people" to "It's not that bad to be a hero".

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Originally Posted by Striker44

-Zoraal Ja was bitter, but did change significantly in the opposite direction as Bakool Ja Ja. Zoraal Ja was in charge of the military and still a major supporter of Tuliyollal despite his insecurity...

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He was always going in the opposite direction of Bakool Ja Ja, from day one. He was a military freak who wanted to spread war to attain "true peace", everything is father wasn't, and he remain like that until the end. Bakool Ja was the possibility for him to have development, but they are barely seeing each other in the MSQ.

If we compare all that to Estinien and Ysayle in Heavensward only, that's a cruel comparison for Dawntrail in my opinion.