Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Id smn became the new utility mage I wouldn't even complain as long it's fun and the utility is useful. The issue right now is it's neither a good DPS nor a utility caster. RDM can do everything a smn can do but so so much better and has some complexity to its kit. That's why I say the caster role balance is off this expac because you have 3 casters but only two out of the three of them are useful and good at what they do...

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yes I agree. And yet it's not so hard to realize that smn has a bad design, especially in utility: why a situational cure? what were the designers thinking to consider it a good idea? Why not accumulate instant ress, when the window of phoenix happens, to pull in the moment of need? That doesn't seem crazy compared to a dualcast+swiftcast of an rdm. What were they thinking when they made Physick that scales on mind and not int? Why put a shield that can't always be cast? Why not have carbuncle attack but just make it very neutered and useless? (the shields pulls them only if you are not in bahamut / phoenix and if it has not just turned into an elemental, and the fact is that the animations of the elementals last a lot so you have to make a predict very early for mitigation or you lose it). Why have so many instant spells when ifrit does not allow slidecasting at all, making it annoying and for the absence of damage not very rewarding? Frankly, all these instant spells are not needed, if not needed for a blm. Especially if they justify the low damage. Why doesn't the smn have ocgds? not necessarily for damage, they can also be abilities to help the party, but right now it has nothing. In garuda window is just a spam of emerald rite, nothing more nothing less. Frankly now smn is nothing: not a strong dps and not a useful utility class.

Man, feel like Summoner complaints got drowned out by all the Samurai complaints. But I still think SMN needs more buttons, dang it.

I love the new summoner. If ppl are mad with the new summoner just play something else like bard for dots or blm/rdm caster playstyle. I used to be drk player wasnt happy with direction of EW then I switch to SMN. I'm currently doing the new ultimate with SMN. I'm so annoyed to see players wanted the pet to have more power do not understand how bad the pet system is on higher content or smn need to be warlock again when it closest to a final fantasy style we ever see. As for buttons we going get more but for sure it be replace by a other button due to the controller players like me.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Man, feel like Summoner complaints got drowned out by all the Samurai complaints. But I still think SMN needs more buttons, dang it.

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I feel this. Like, I have a love/hate relationship with new SMN; I feel like...they're going in the right direction (I think), but to be able to play the job essentially with one hand is weird and doesn't feel nice to play. But like, it's...okay? Idk, I have mixed feelings. Just seems like there's more complaints about jobs more than ever flooding the front page.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

I love the new summoner. If ppl are mad with the new summoner just play something else like bard for dots or blm/rdm caster playstyle. I used to be drk player wasnt happy with direction of EW then I switch to SMN. I'm currently doing the new ultimate with SMN. I'm so annoyed to see players wanted the pet to have more power do not understand how bad the pet system is on higher content or smn need to be warlock again when it closest to a final fantasy style we ever see. As for buttons we going get more but for sure it be replace by a other button due to the controller players like me.

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I mean it's fine you and others like new smn. I don't mind new smn myself and I do hope they build on what they have now but that's the thing, we don't know they will. Look at the mch rework in ShB, they said the same thing about mch ppl are saying about smn. "Wait to next expac, we get more buttons and they build on top of mch's kit." Well here we are one whole expac later and what did mch get? An upgraded spammable aoe, a new finisher for queen, and one whole new button to press ever so often. Mch didn't change, it didn't get better between ShB and EW, so what is it to say smn will? My issue about new smn is the fact it's so barebones, feels unfinished and it is so rigid. You are on a railroad track the whole time with no meaningful choices.

Also, the new smn has left a gap in the caster role. It used to be the in-between rdm and blm where RDM was considered the utility job of choice and BLM was considered the pure dps of choice. Smn was a balance between dps and utility. Now that rdm and smn have the same dps we can only look at the utility they are to make a decision between them. When you do look at their utility rdm pulls ahead of smn because they can rez 2 to 3 ppl in a row and has on-demand mit utility whereas smn can rez one person pre min and its healing utility is locked behind a demi that only every odd minute. I said it before rdm can do everything an smn can do but better.

Now you said just go play blm/rdm if you don't like smn. Well, I could but why do I, someone who main smn since SB have to be made to change to jobs I never liked. Do you know why I chose smn in SB? Because I enjoy it more than any other job in the game at the time. I hated blm and I never cared for rdm, smn was just right for me bc I wanted to play a caster that was fun to play, had semi-high dps, and offer some utility. Now, where do I go? There isn't a 4th caster I can choose from. I would change to rpr but my static of 2 years has one but has no caster so I'm forced to play jobs I don't really enjoy. I currently play smn and some rdm just bc its the role I'm filling in for, not because I enjoy them. Either way, you are free to enjoy new smn but don't shut down those who feel the same way as I do. Those who lost their home job and now being told to go play something else.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

If ppl are mad with the new summoner just play something else like bard for dots or blm/rdm caster playstyle.

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Not exactly the best advice. There are reasons why there are a lot of complaints and it shouldn't just be ignored or passed on as 'well if *I* like it bla bla' - okay great you like it, but a lot of players don't and that much is pretty much evident. The only players I've noticed that enjoy the new SMN are those that like simple or hated the pet thing, which I agree with (the pet thing, that is. I want more complexity though). BUT, that doesn't mean that the new SMN is great either. As for the dot thing, we aren't asking for the dot to come back, we're just asking for something....more. It's not a bad thing to have a desire for a job that we had once previously enjoyed to be revived as something that is enjoyable to play again with more than a single brain cell. I literally check out when I play the new SMN. I can just hope that they do add more to the job later on, but I'm not going to inch to the edge of my seat thinking they will.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

If ppl are mad with the new summoner just play something else like bard for dots or blm/rdm caster playstyle.

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It's a darn shame then, that they removed what little interaction Bard DoTs had with their kit in this expansion as well. It used to be the case that song procs and Sidewinder were based off your DoTs but this isn't the case any more. There are now zero jobs that have dots that interact with the rest of the kit.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

It's a darn shame then, that they removed what little interaction Bard DoTs had with their kit in this expansion as well. It used to be the case that song procs and Sidewinder were based off your DoTs but this isn't the case any more. There are now zero jobs that have dots that interact with the rest of the kit.

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Nevermind the audacity to suggest that Summoner didn’t offer unique gameplay compared to now. Red Mage’s melee and double cast requirements limit its mobility options and Black Mage’s cooldown management optimization is designed to highlight how little it’s allowed to move. Bard’s all about procs and actually WAS the phase based job they were after. Pre-Endwalker Summoner, by contrast, is the ONLY Caster DPS job with a GRANULAR curve on its movement optimization thanks to having a consistent on-demand instantcast spell from day one. What else did it have? Hardcast DoTs, actual pet management, a significant and lengthy window where movement was effectively free (DWT/FBT in SB/ShB), and for a long time, the exclusive ability to realign many of its burst cooldowns around the fight based on downtime at ZERO loss (Aetherflow, Summon Bahamut, DWT in HW/SB). And the DoTs and Aetherflow fit thematically as representations of Allagan Arcanima ALONGSIDE the Carbuncles and Egi.

If they wanted a phase based rotation with barely functional differences and no real thinking required beyond reacting to glowing/contextual buttons thanks to unlimited mobility while getting randomly punished for arbitrary reasons, Bard was there for them the entire time. I want my job and its prerequisite class back so we can take its strong themes and solid core progression curve and inject it with actual mechanical flavor on top, dammit!

The lean into job identity was nice, but in terms of gameplay, its horrible. I liked summoner til endwalker. Now it feels hollow. Maybe when they build onto it itll feel better.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

The lean into job identity was nice, but in terms of gameplay, its horrible. I liked summoner til endwalker. Now it feels hollow. Maybe when they build onto it itll feel better.

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I wouldn't bet on it, considering people said the same thing about MCH last expansion and they got basically nothing in this one.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

If ppl are mad with the new summoner just play something else like bard for dots or BLM/RDM caster playstyle.

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And if I like micromanaging many things at once with a busy rotation (AKA old SMN's core identity)?

"Play a different job" works when you're trying a new job and don't like its core identity. Less so when your main job was robbed of its identity with nothing quite like it.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

I love the new summoner. If ppl are mad with the new summoner just play something else like bard for dots or blm/rdm caster playstyle. I used to be drk player wasnt happy with direction of EW then I switch to SMN. I'm currently doing the new ultimate with SMN. I'm so annoyed to see players wanted the pet to have more power do not understand how bad the pet system is on higher content or smn need to be warlock again when it closest to a final fantasy style we ever see. As for buttons we going get more but for sure it be replace by a other button due to the controller players like me.

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Do you realize how insane it sounds to tell people who want to play a caster not to play summoner? Maybe the design is fundamentally flawed if a casting job doesn't deliver on a casting playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Maybe when they build onto it itll feel better.

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List of jobs that have had a half-baked rework that evolved into something good:

I think, they did a good job making aesthetically pleasing, and it looks the role. The game play of it though is very bland.

This was exactly the way it happened to me! Well, nearly. The day I saw the rework reveal. I was disappointed. And I remember I was genuinely concerned when most people I see online are fine or happy that SMN is getting dumbed down. Most seem to note that the ShB SMN was too "complicated" or "glitchy" (used interchangably) to do optimal DPS. I see it as a part of the challenge to dps.

I remember i joked about it with my friends, a rumor about a change to the pets in SMN, this is exactly what I said I didnt want to see. Stripping the class genre of all that makes it unique. A reskinning of the spells, slapping on a primal "themed" suite of spells. It makes absolutely no difference if a fireball spell is, a simple fireball spell or a fireball "summoned by Ifrit!". Mechanics wise all I see is the rework taking away, a deficit, more than just changing it. There is no solid mechanic change that's specific to summons, its gone entirely . Underneath the reskinning, it's just a "stance" changing mage. Too much of the identity of being a summoner class relies on our own imagination lol.

A typical utility mage, that does less dmg than a BLM but have the same core. You cast spells. I didn't like BLM before, Im willing to do less dmg than a traditional mage (BLM) to play a unique pet class. The trade off was fine to me. Play the fantasy of a pet class with the utility as a plus, Jack of all trades master of none, that's fine. Thing is, I doubt SMN would hold up to BLM in terms of optimal dmg even when they are now a traditional mage.

Carbuncle.. sigh. It doesnt even give the party buff anymore, its a place holder for bahamut and firebird. I wont be surprised if later down the patches, they remove that too. Pull bahamut and firebird into existence straight out of your horny hat! That way bahamut/firebird wont spawn in awkward locations or something like that to justify it. Carby? oh it's providing moral support or screen clutter, pick one, it wouldnt matter.

Finally, it would have been a silver lining if there is some sort of mechanic that could trigger something different during those primal stances something I'd have to choose to use this on this particular primal stance to get a particular effect. Or make it so that there is some interaction between my current summoned carby/egi when using their primal stance. Just something that isnt, spam all spells and stances asap. Previously, Dots and fester was minimal but its still something when considering your rotation, the dreadwyrm trance reset was neat and satisfying. I just dont see something like that in the rework.

Now I play scholar mostly, crying to Eos/Selene (wish it mattered) or reaper.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I think, they did a good job making aesthetically pleasing, and it looks the role. The game play of it though is very bland.

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I actually personally hate resummoning the primals over and over again; even worse when there's more than one summoner. So many titans jumping in my line of sight...
Please, let me summon the primal I deem the most necessary and allow me to have a choice without it being so repetitive. It's weird.

I'm aware that they can be smaller, but then it just doesn't have that same feel of epicness. I never win. Sad.

I feel really bad for ShB Summoner players. Sure I'm pissed about Samurai right now, but having a job reworked like SMN must feel 10x worse.

To me the job just feels straight up incomplete, like they were still in the concept phase when they remembered they had a deadline and just threw some ideas together, applied some tape and said "Yep, this is good". The level 90 SMN plays like a level 50 tank in terms of complexity, such an awful design choice IMO.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

To me the job just feels straight up incomplete, like they were still in the concept phase when they remembered they had a deadline and just threw some ideas together, applied some tape and said "Yep, this is good". The level 90 SMN plays like a level 50 tank in terms of complexity, such an awful design choice IMO.

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This is the same thing I said. I’m actually worried for Astro since they basically giving them a major rework in 6.2. I hope they take more time with it than they did summoner.

Summoner feels good..if the level cap was 60. EW summoner is even simpler then SB red mage. I don’t think we’ll see any real changes until 7.0.

I do think they’ve done a really nice job with red mage. The additions in shb and EW were perfect. I feel like that job has the perfect amount of complexity.

I hope that they can at least build on this.

Well you have two choices now; play the job as is or don't play the job because you are stuck with it for two years. SE does not make massive changes during a patch series cycle, instead you'll just see minor changes like searing light and potency adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Summoner feels good..if the level cap was 60. EW summoner is even simpler then SB red mage. I don’t think we’ll see any real changes until 7.0.

I do think they’ve done a really nice job with red mage. The additions in shb and EW were perfect. I feel like that job has the perfect amount of complexity.

I hope that they can at least build on this.

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To be frank. They can’t. I’ve gone over the technical details why multiple times, but the Resummon mechanic itself is what got us here. The only way to fix that is to undo the pet changes and make new spells, and it still doesn’t fix the padded rotation they gave us which further puts pressure on them to rework it.

Straight up I expect that in 7.0 we’ll just get meaningless potency buffs and rotate between Ramuh/Shiva/Levi and absolutely nothing will change, because they can’t come up with anything better.

I'm still baffled by Yoshi's weird vendetta against pet classes. If you're going to remove pet interactions from Summoner, is it even Summoner? Plays more like a watered down Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

This is the same thing I said. I’m actually worried for Astro since they basically giving them a major rework in 6.2. I hope they take more time with it than they did summoner.

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This sucks, since summoner and astrologian are my 2 mains I play. I feel....well...something...

I feel sick lmao.

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Originally Posted by Flashy

I feel really bad for ShB Summoner players. Sure I'm pissed about Samurai right now, but having a job reworked like SMN must feel 10x worse.

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As a former SMN main, yeah (not to say what happened to SAM isn't terrible too). The good thing about SAM is that the changes can be easily reverted and I think there's a good chance. But SMN... We are stuck with it. SE reworking a job is basically a death sentence.

The worst part is that SMN's rework was lazy and half-assed. Imagine being reworked and having:

- An useless Carbuncle that is also a burden because the game won't let you use your self shield whenever you want to for no good reason
- Aetherflow, a relic from the past that has zero interaction with the rest of your kit. They didn't even bother changing Fester name which obviously doesn't make sense anymore without DoTs. On top of that, we still have that sweet, sweet button bloat because AoE versions of Aetherflow is pinnacle job design
- Burst phases that are just handed to you and are mostly just a 111111 spam. There is nothing you build up to and every 60 seconds you get to do your 1111111 burst. How fun
- The worst leveling experience in the game, by far. The job just doesn't change until the level 86 trait when SMN gets complexity you'd find on a level 60 job
- No room for additional complexity as the devs designed themselves into a corner. SMN's rework would need a rework but the devs are not likely to admit their failure

The future for this job looks completely grim and even the "Wait for 7.0!" argument is dumb because you shouldn't have to wait two years to get what you should have gotten back in December.

I sort of want them to redo it. I know that won't happen, but a guy can dream. Summoner is now just the repetition job - summon 1 2 3, do it over again 1 2 3, ope again, 1 2 3.

And again....and again...and again...

I wish they had implemented the primals in a way that you got to choose what one you wanted summoned that would benefit you the most in whatever situation. The carbuncle is now just super sad, he just stands there looking at me waiting for a treat or something I dunno man.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

I sort of want them to redo it. I know that won't happen, but a guy can dream. Summoner is now just the repetition job - summon 1 2 3, do it over again 1 2 3, ope again, 1 2 3.

And again....and again...and again...

I wish they had implemented the primals in a way that you got to choose what one you wanted summoned that would benefit you the most in whatever situation. The carbuncle is now just super sad, he just stands there looking at me waiting for a treat or something I dunno man.

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I just wish it worked like ff7 remake primals. You so on them and they come down and fight with you for a little bit then end of their timer they do their ultimate spell then vanish.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I just wish it worked like ff7 remake primals. You so on them and they come down and fight with you for a little bit then end of their timer they do their ultimate spell then vanish.

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That would be better than what we have now imho.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I just wish it worked like ff7 remake primals. You so on them and they come down and fight with you for a little bit then end of their timer they do their ultimate spell then vanish.

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Please no. This is Automan Queen and MCH's already hate this. We don't need the same of something that others have been complaining about. The way Titan, Garuda, and Ifrit are summoned is OK, just not HOW. Bahamut and Phoenix would benefit by getting their Wyrmrave and Scarlet Flame per Spellcast since they be actual turrets with no separation anxiety.

For me SMN would be way more interesting if

1) The summons stayed in the field and Gemshine would actually be skills that the summons themselves execute at our command during their duration/number of stacks.

2) Aetherflow were a gauge with 3 stacks that fills as you use summons.

3) Tri-disaster were an offensive ability where its potency depends on how many stacks of Aetherflow you have, spending all of them when you use it. Also granting 1 to 3 stacks (depending on the number of Aetherflow stacks) that increases the potency of Astral Impulse/Brand of Purgatory and Gemshine. It becomes available whenever at least one stack of aetherflow is up.

4) Turn current Ruin IV into Bane (as offensive ability) and current Tri-disaster into Ruin IV.

5) Energy Drain gives 3 stacks of Aetherflow for opener with Tri-disaster and unlocks Bane (AoE) and Fester (single target). Aligning Energy Drain with Summon Bahamut/Phoenix right, we could buff all six shots of Astral Impulse/Brand of Purgatory, so some tiny degree management is necessary...


We gotta dream at least... #sadge

It's ironic that this rework was supposed to solve the problem of multiple expansions of disparate systems stacked to a breaking point, and all it accomplished was mostly the same pile of disparate systems, except every single one was sanded down into something far, far, far more boring than before. It certainly is more exciting I suppose, but that excitement is all novelty and fades extremely quickly.

Well I've lost faith in SE in general.

First we have the CEO who's more concerned with fleecing money from us with cash grabs like NFT, overpriced resin statues, and pay to win games. The only thing this company has going for it right now it FFXIV bringing in the cash to help offset all the loses. Rumor report is Sony is about to just buy the troubled company.

Next the director is doing triple duty as a Division Exec and Producer on other projects. Not knocking the guy because it does good work and I'm sure FFXVI will be a huge hit. The problem is since he less hands on with FFXIV it needs a Co-Director who is worth spit. Maybe poach FFXI's Director since he designed FFXIV 2.0 battle system.

Which brings us to the Battle Team... Clearly we need some changes because 3 people plus a lead isn't working. I remember in 2.0 and 3.0, even when content was dried up I would still run dungeons and battle content not just for gear but because the jobs were just fun to play. It's hard to say that now and would rather just do crafting or not log in at all and play something else.

I have some gripes about 6.x Summoner, so my opinion of the job is absolutely mixed. It's personally not terrible, but also not too satisfying to play at times with my main points of contention being more about Egi/Carbuncle now unintentionally becoming screen clutter and the feel of the job in content below level 86.

Summons not having much interaction for this expansion is heartbreaking. It's understood why the dependency on pets for damage/support is being slowly phased out due to pet queuing issues, such as dropping commands and unresponsiveness, as well the reason as to why pets can no longer return to auto-attacking as they did before since pets do not stay on the field for a significant amount of time to do anything of worth due to being constantly re-summoned and displaced by said re-summoning. On the other hand, I also would not dare say that there was any "job flavor" to the problems that plagued the pet systems either; it needed to be finally addressed. 6.x demi-summons no longer needing player input to auto-attack and 6.1 changes Searing Light did wonders (and I absolutely give thanks for these changes) for the job in solving this, but it is a certain feeling when your Egi simply has no use other than being catalyst for demi-summoning. I question if it is possible for Summoner to not even require pets in the future and plainly use demi-summons without them, similar to what it is like in PvP content. Would it be possible for pets to moved to a job-unique system like Bard's performance and have them as pure decoration (like minions) for those who would wish to keep their beloved pets around in fields or towns?

The job also has some weirdness in content where you do not have the trait Elemental Mastery with content below level 86. Although it is not as damaging (if any, with this iteration of Summoner) to do in level 90 content, I often get into below level 86 dungeons or trials and realize very late that I ended up messing up a rotation, as it is a massive change to the job after the prominent gap in the rotation through levels 70 to 85. It feels very empty when said gem-based Astral Flow are not available when, before 6.x, the Egi already had access to those (or something similar, in the case of Ifrit-Egi) around the same levels. Please consider moving the Elemental Mastery trait to level 76 instead to help with this. Perhaps there could a trait for Astral Flow to be added as a replacement that adds additional effects to the Elemental Mastery granted after obtaining level 86 to compliment the movement as well?

In the end, I really want to love 6.x Summoner as I did before in 5.x and I will continue being a main of the job, even if it gives me strange feelings. It cannot be helped, as I joined the game because I always adored any Summoner iteration, no matter how different it was in comparison to previous and future ones and loved seeing 14's Egi doing their own things alongside me. I do not speak for other Summoner mains, of course, but I do hope that some of their voices become more vocal about this and are acknowledged on how the job makes them feel if they still have their questions. Also, I apologize for any strange wording on my part.

Nah, I've mained it since late HW and this is the best it's ever been. If I have a gripe, it's that I wish the trio of summons after Phoenix was a different set than the base three after Bahamut. Don't care that it's so few buttons now because they all feel different enough in execution between each summon.

I noticed it's changed how I interact with other players. In roulettes, I used to be excited when I saw a summoner! I would wave to them, pet the carbuncle, even favored them for commends at the end. But with summoner in its current state, I feel like I don't need to 'reward' people who play summoner. Like, if they're playing it, clearly they are happy with their light-up buttons? And I don't understand how that's fulfilling at all but sure. Play how you wanna play. Just don't expect me to care about your shiny new "job".

Overall, I feel like this iteration of Summoner is "progress". It's a step in the correct direction, and has finally given the Job a core, solidified design idea that aligns with the iconic depictions of Summoner in the broader FF franchise.

However, I also feel like the current design feels like I'm "Beta Testing" a Summoner concept. It's a good start, but to me, it doesn't really feel "finished". Especially compared to how crisp and depthy previous iterations of Summoner felt (despite being abominations from a QOL perspective).

For me, personally, these are my major concerns right now:


I don't like the feeling of "empty" summon GCDs.

I feel like Summon actions worked much better as OGCDs, since it's a separate entity manifesting onto the field. And in the current system, there's actually less need than ever before for having them on a GCD.

I really don't like the weird "dead zone" in my rotation, where my rotational rhythm suddenly grinds to a full stop, and I just sit there, awkwardly, waiting for my Demi or Gem-Primal-Thing to finish doing its JoJo intro scene.

I'd much rather be "actively" casting another Ruin 3 while my summon finishes its Windows 95 boot sequence, than just standing there shuffling my feet for 2.50 seconds.

The cycle feels too repetitive

For me, the Arcanum sequences become too familiar, too quickly. It feels like this design was really "meant" to have 6 different Arcanums. Doing Ifrit/Titan/Garuda every 60s makes me slowly go crazy, because it's just not varied enough.

Something is wrong when I get back to a point in my rotation, and find myself thinking, "Ugh, I'm already here again? I feel like I just did Ifrit..."

In my opinion, the problem isn't the current design of Ifrit/Titan/Garuda. They're "fine". Not super-exciting, but different enough from each other, and... yeah... I think the best word is, "fine".

Instead, they just come up again too soon.

But for me, I also feel like this point would primarily be resolved by addressing the next point, so...

Where are Shiva, Ramuh, and Leviathan??

"But Shiva is—" Sister please, we've been carting around Louisoix like a designer handbag for 3 years. And lorewise, we all have to meet her as a mandatory part of MSQ. And for... reasons... we're actually probably extra-saturated with her "aetherial residue", in particular.

...So anyway, SE, look. I just want to be an FF Summoner, okay?

And FF franchise Summoners... summon things. They summon lots of things. They spend the course of their given game collecting things to summon, so that they can summon even more things.

A Summoner that can only summon Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda feels like a Summoner that is still in the first 10 hours of an FF game's storyline. You know, the part where you don't even have an airship yet, and you're still chasing the wrong villain.

And current FFXIV Carbuncle doesn't count, because it doesn't really... do anything, so it doesn't feel like a real summon. (Sorry Carbuncle, nothing personal.)

Now, we do have Bahamut and Phoenix — good! Two major "late-game" Summons are already here. That is good!

But where are the other FF Summoner staples?

• Shiva is classic FF Summoner.
• Ramuh is classic FF Summoner.
• Leviathan is classic FF Summoner.

And they don't even need special "egi models" now... you can just Copy+Paste their actual encounter models.

Come onnnnnnn SE, just do it... just fill out the rest of the classic FF Summon menu.

Where are other late-game Summons?

Actually, while you're at it, consider filling out other classic FF "late-game" Summons.

• Demi-Odin
• Demi-Warring Triad (probably change the part where it damages your own party, though... people might not like that)
• Demi-Alexander

"But what if I somehow decide to never do those raids/trials, yet also somehow paradoxically care about the lore of why I'm able to Summon them?"

Okay first of all, what.

And second of all, just put on your Banri Oda Interview Hat for a second, and think of whatever creative, pretzel-shaped explanation that you need.

Odin:

Have you ever been in Black Shroud during Tension weather? You can't remember for sure? Exactly. Let's just say you were. It's probably true. And you were huffing Odin fumes that whole time. Now, the power is within you!

Warring Triad:

Well you know, when you fought LahaGeyorm and Thordan, you were standing on top of the Warring Triad and Thordan was slurping up their aether and so he got some Warring Triad in your Warrior of Light.

Alexander:

Well you had to travel in Dravanian Hinterlands as part of MSQ, even after the Illuminati summoned Alexander, and so therefore, you inhaled enough Alexander vapors.

Reconsider the design of Energy Drain / Fester / Aetherflow

With the removal of SMN dots, this set of actions feel really odd and relict. They don't really fit the FFXIV Summoner theming any more. In retrospect, this probably stems from the 2.0 decision to have Arcanist upgrade into a totally-unrelated lore concept, but, uh, that ship sailed a wee while ago, so let's just try not to think about it.

I guess it's fine if you want Summoner to have the stock, tacked-on Gauge / OGCD stacks that seems requisite in FFXIV design these days, but just... like... please maybe change the flavor.

For example, "Fester" could instead be "Sparkling Sparkle Power", and change into a different OGCD that is themed on which Summon is currently active.

Spice up Demi windows again

I think that Demi windows feel kind of underwhelming now, from a play perspective. There's just not much going on.

To be clear, I think that Demi windows were, uh... ridiculous in Shadowbringers, but I think that was due to poor design issues like "Surprise, you didn't triple-weave at exactly midnight on the Vernal Equinox, so you lost a Phoenix attack, LOL"... and not the inherent concept of a busy summon window.

I think that this could easily be spiced up a bit.

For example, imagine if every Astral Flare generated a stack of Aetherflow, which could be spent on... uh, I don't know, "Flare Breath", a massive frontal cone OGCD.

There, now you have more of an active rhythm going on during Demi windows.

Someone mentions elemental mastery being at lvl 76, maybe. One of the things smn absolutely needs is a downgraded version of elemental mastery at the end of ARR or HW. As you lvl summoner you will have the core of the rotation unlocked at lvl 45? No even earlier with the carbuncles.
Doing the same rotation all the way up to lvl 76/86 is like playing WHM.
Just have elemental mastery 1 at lvl 50/56 and elemental mastery 2 at lvl 76/86.
After that their need to be more built on top of the fundation the dev have created.
Somebody else mentions the other primals. Well i hope they feel more different than what we have. I already dont like how simuliar garuda/titan and DWT feel as i am lvl 66.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralt21

Someone mentions elemental mastery being at lvl 76, maybe. One of the things smn absolutely needs is a downgraded version of elemental mastery at the end of ARR or HW. As you lvl summoner you will have the core of the rotation unlocked at lvl 45? No even earlier with the carbuncles.
Doing the same rotation all the way up to lvl 76/86 is like playing WHM.
Just have elemental mastery 1 at lvl 50/56 and elemental mastery 2 at lvl 76/86.
After that their need to be more built on top of the fundation the dev have created.
Somebody else mentions the other primals. Well i hope they feel more different than what we have. I already dont like how simuliar garuda/titan and DWT feel as i am lvl 66.

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If they add something at a lower level, I think something needs to be added in place of it from 80-90.

That being said I would be more than ok adding complexity to SMN.

The class just feels hollow and bad to play. I can decide which color of Crayola I want to eat first yet they all do the same thing. Why the hell summons ain't pets anymore while they fixed SCh Fairy AI. Why can't we summon other primal yet? Why am I spamming 1 buttons during mroe than half my rotations? Seriously you can macro the whole rotation on a single button due to how simple it is.

Meanwhile, I'm enjoying it. Simple, but smooth and clean. I've seen every SMN iteration before this one and I could never stomach it (and I love the SMN thematically).

Unresponsive pets (contagion taking 3 seconds to cast in ARR), dying pets to random stuff (with the whole sustain drama with some people wanting it back), fester registering too early after dot appliance resulting in terrible damage, 1 minute atherflow prepulls, Ifrit-egi wandering around aimlessly against spread targets, aetherflow spells landing on immune targets not giving any dreadwyrm attunement which pretty much destroyed your entire rotation, SMNs dying being extremely crippling to recover, Egi Assaults going from OGCD to GCD because people were getting carpal tunnel after pressing 544 buttons every rotation cycle. Demis ghosting AAs. Egi Assaults ghosting too. And that's just scratching the surface because the list is endless.

I don't miss any of the above.

To summarise, I'm happy with the current SMN, yes, it is simple, but it flows well, it works, it has good DPS and everything about it looks clean, smooth and polished. The other iterations almost looked like the rotation was in a Beta state with a zillion bugs and issues.

Going by FFlogs, SMN right now has the second most uploaded amount of parses in the current savage iteration, only behind RPR which is pretty much EW's new flavour, so I don't know if people are as unhappy with the SMN as the regulars in this thread are presenting it.