The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

I think the opposite should happen. They need to add DPS checks and hard enrages to more casual content, like the Alliance Raids, so that people are encouraged to perform well.

When Weeping City came out, during the first week, I solo'd Calofisteri down from 5% on WAR. It wasn't even hard; she hit like a wet noodle and her telegraphs were easily dealt with. Things like that shouldn't be possible. It's dumb.

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Yeah, this. More enrage timers please.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You want to incentivize tank stance more often? Make enmity matter, lessen cooldowns or outright take away immunities. Tanks frequently rotate into tank stance in Ultimate. Why? They don't always have CDs to mitigate the sheer amount of incoming damage. Until tanks need to be in tank stance or healers need to heal, damage will always be the superior option.

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They also need to stop giving more and more enmity reduction skills to every class.
Every single caster and healer has access to two through cross role actions which is pretty absurd right there, and every physical class has access to at least one with most of them having a second one specific to their class.
This practically begs the tank to hyper focus on dps.
After all, why should the tank worry about enmity when everyone else can do that for him and without sacrificing anyone's damage?
This is completely backwards logic towards a role.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

I think the opposite should happen. They need to add DPS checks and hard enrages to more casual content, like the Alliance Raids, so that people are encouraged to perform well.

When Weeping City came out, during the first week, I solo'd Calofisteri down from 5% on WAR. It wasn't even hard; she hit like a wet noodle and her telegraphs were easily dealt with. Things like that shouldn't be possible. It's dumb.

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I know a lot of people who frequent these or any forums on the game are pretty hardcore players, but the majority of people sub'd to ffxiv are casual and / or just enjoy hanging out in a final fantasy world with others experiencing content.

Yeah you shouldn't be undergeared or have no idea what you are doing but these hardcore dps checks belong in endgame hardcore type content and not in the regular game.

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Originally Posted by Orbus

They also need to stop giving more and more enmity reduction skills to every class.
Every single caster and healer has access to two through cross role actions which is pretty absurd right there, and every physical class has access to at least one with most of them having a second one specific to their class.
This practically begs the tank to hyper focus on dps.
After all, why should the tank worry about enmity when everyone else can do that for him and without sacrificing anyone's damage?
This is completely backwards logic towards a role.

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Uh... healers have one enmity dump: Lucid Dreaming. They don't have access to anything other than that.

That being said, I disagree with this. I like that enmity is a party responsibility and not a burden placed solely on a tank.

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Originally Posted by supergiz

I know a lot of people who frequent these or any forums on the game are pretty hardcore players, but the majority of people sub'd to ffxiv are casual and / or just enjoy hanging out in a final fantasy world with others experiencing content.

Yeah you shouldn't be undergeared or have no idea what you are doing but these hardcore dps checks belong in endgame hardcore type content and not in the regular game.

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I think 24-Mans should have an Enrage timer of sorts. As well as the 8-man normal modes. Once you've been in a 15-minute Construct 7 or a 13-minute Thundergod Cid or a 15-minute Guardian normal mode, you start to think they should have some sort of timer on them. Nothing super strict, but I don't think these fights should surpass 11~12 minutes. I get the impression that a lot of people don't care about damage at the upper levels because so many things don't stress doing decent amounts of it. And then these players go into EX or Savage, and complain when they are suddenly expected to beat an Enrage timer.

The first boss of Dun Scaith has a hard enrage, and I think that's quite neat.

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Originally Posted by Orbus

They also need to stop giving more and more enmity reduction skills to every class.
Every single caster and healer has access to two through cross role actions which is pretty absurd right there, and every physical class has access to at least one with most of them having a second one specific to their class.
This practically begs the tank to hyper focus on dps.
After all, why should the tank worry about enmity when everyone else can do that for him and without sacrificing anyone's damage?
This is completely backwards logic towards a role.

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My point of view: I like things like this, because they emphasize team play by having players in one role actively helping the players in another role. Tanks and healers can focus on DPS (thus helping the DPS role) because DPS mitigate aggro and use mitigative cooldowns (anything from second wind, addle, apoc/palisade) to reduce aggro gen needed and healing needed (helping the healing / tanking roles). This synergy of teamwork is in my opinion much better than a rigid "Tanks must tank, healers must heal, and that is all God wrote was good" view.

I'm telling you RIGHT NOW as a tank main. If anyone does that shit where I'm FORCED to tank stance, I'm literally switching to DPS. Force that on the tank community. Go for it. We'll just stop playing tanks since you want to force that shit on us. Then when your queues are 3 hours long, you'll beg for them to remove the nerf. Go ahead. Try it.

PLD has: Sentinel, Rampart.............sheltron.... That's ALL of our defensive cooldowns for ourselves. TWO COOLDOWNS. Gauge can also be used on intervention to support the other tank.

DRK has: Dark Mind, Rampart, Shadow Wall, TBN. That's it. One of them is COMPLETELY USELESS against physical autos and tank busters like Midgardsormr's Tail End. The other has a mana cost and is undesirable to use unless needed to manipulate a GCD or burn excess mana which can be burned with another Dark Arts.

WAR has: Thrill of Battle (just basically an HP pad, not actual reduction of damage), Rampart, Vengeance, Raw Intuition. Raw is totally USELESS against magic damage like O12's Solar Ray, Savage Wave Cannon, Oversampled Wave cannon, Diffuse Wave Cannon, patch, etc.... Inner Beast which is gated behind tank stance, and is not on demand unless you have 50 gauge.

Take away rampart, and PLD has ONE cooldown outside of Sheltron. DRK has TWO cooldowns outside of TBN. War has THREE cooldowns outside of IB.

2 to 3 defensives. Yeah. That's a lot of cooldowns, man.

I hope that they do increase the amount of tank busters, it'd put more strain on tanks to actually tank swap and use cooldowns creatively and force healers to optimize.

Literally ALL you will achieve is: Healers min maxing EVEN more and tanks abusing swaps to extend the amount of cooldowns they have. You will NOT force tank stance on us, stop trying to. Never gonna happen, broskis.

I hate it when casuals try to dictate how MY job role should play. I don't demand the same of DPS classes, and healers. Please leave tanks alone. And if you are a tank main wanting such a horrendous nerf... shame on you.

I'd rather see less enrage and more unique mechanics. Not insta-death stuff, but things that require the party be on their toes to avoid or the healer to be on their toes to cleanse. I'm all for randomization of boss abilities, too. A longer battle with randomized mechanics without clear telegraphs is a lot more challenging to me than a zerg rush where people ignore mechanics because "healers adjust" and "muh deeps".

We wouldn't need tanks and healers to step up and DPS to beat enrage timers if the DPS role wasn't where all the bad players who don't want any responsibility go. There's no reason my WHM should be outdamaging a NIN on a single target boss >.>

Sounds to me like tanks don't want tank anymore but dps. Find it pretty bad all time when use my 2 skills to lower enmity that have long cd and still have all monsters charge after me when using a spell to attack all mobs that tank pulled into a huge group. Lost count how many times have died and group wipe from it. Doesn't matter if tanks quit being tanks still going to have very long queues when get moved to new datacenter. Heard eu already getting them like 45 minute queue for potd.

Or make enrage timers something other than time's up everyone dies.

Stacking damage up buffs like some EX trials have for example. Still a timer, but it's different than rocks fall everyone dies.

I can't comment on the WHM nin thing. I get annoyed by rage timers and dps checks died to them so many times on other mmos but i would never ask for their removal because i agree that part of the incentive to get better is to want to. " 'my' drop is beyond this boss, but to get there i have to get past this one. So i need to get better." Or alternatively, i really, really want my revenge on <insert boss here>

I do partially agree that dps don't want the responsibility. I dps more than anything now because i don't want to have to youtube every dungeon and raid, for days, to learn every fight, every shortcut and every sneaky trash ability no-one tells you about. I mainly dps because i don't want to "have" to know the abilities of jobs i don't even play.

Because the game now has a pedigree, tanks are "expected" to know all this, even if they are a completely new player.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Here's the truth; this game is made, by the devs, to encourage as much dps as possible. This is largely as a result of enrage timers and other dps checks.

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Completely disagree, enrage is there because of how easy it is to recover after major mistakes and keep going. While you can make few mistakes, too many should not carry you to a win, that's the purpose behind enrage and why it is staying.

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Originally Posted by Orbus

They also need to stop giving more and more enmity reduction skills to every class.
Every single caster and healer has access to two through cross role actions which is pretty absurd right there, and every physical class has access to at least one with most of them having a second one specific to their class.
This practically begs the tank to hyper focus on dps.
After all, why should the tank worry about enmity when everyone else can do that for him and without sacrificing anyone's damage?
This is completely backwards logic towards a role.

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Nope they should give them more and directly implement it into the skills so the lazy people use emnity reduction without pressing a button.
Healers have Lucid Dreaming and thats it, nice try.
Tanks can only focus on dps if the party lets him and thats rarely the case if said tank does duties with randoms. There is also nothing wrong with tanks that have their focus on dps if they are doing mechanics right because emnity is the job of the whole party and not just the job of the tank.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Sounds to me like tanks don't want tank anymore but dps. Find it pretty bad all time when use my 2 skills to lower enmity that have long cd and still have all monsters charge after me when using a spell to attack all mobs that tank pulled into a huge group. Lost count how many times have died and group wipe from it. Doesn't matter if tanks quit being tanks still going to have very long queues when get moved to new datacenter. Heard eu already getting them like 45 minute queue for potd.

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Bad players =/= an entire job design.

Even if DPS checks were less lenient tank and healer players would still want to maximize their DPS in stuff, anyway.

If you want tanks to tank and healers to heal, you'd need to remove OGCD mitigation and healing from the game. Or make spikier, random, damage intake. Like auto's that can crit for half your health bar (so, 50k if factoring in stuff like Defiance Bonus, or 35k ~ 40k if not).

But sitting on a boss in tank stance the entire time is about as interesting as saying "Tanks just have permanent threat and can't lose it" which kinda removes an entire mechanic from the role. And if mitigation is just passives with spike damage being dealt with by the stance itself and healers, then that's even less work.

The way things are currently is more interesting, at least. It forces players who want to sit in their DPS stance to understand and maximize their CD's, or die (and how to manage threat with their party + threat combos or openers + Damage types + DPS output as that generates threat). It'd be like if I said all DPS should have 2 button rotations because the vast majority of them don't know how to push their combos correctly. It just punishes the people who enjoy improving and prefer to think about the multitude of things they could've done differently to then improve the next run with.

Either way, enrage timers or no, people would still try to maximize their damage output. Even in WoW, where being a tank is pretty much braindead in terms of keeping mitigation running and holding threat, people still work to maximize damage output on those tanks because... there's literally nothing else to do when you have a fight on farm, and it keeps the re-clearing interesting. But it's a little more fun to feel like the damage is worthwhile, and be able to learn how to safely push it.

But in the example you presented of players playing the game poorly, that'll just... be a thing no matter what happens. And it's not a symptom of tank design here, when in titles like WoW and even RIFT back when, tanks did the same thing and made the same mistakes (losing threat by not using their AoE and tagging everything, not using what passive mitigation they have since they're not understanding their priority system, using non-threat generating abilities on a pull etc...).

Without enrage timer and general DPS check, the role would not be DPS, but DD, which I'm fine with, but I think it's more fun if there is a standard that you are held to so you can tell that your party is at least doing well and not just the bare minimum. Without an official support for damage parser, a DPS check is a good way to know your party should be doing much better in terms of doing mechanics and dealing damage.

With that said, I am more in favor of DPS checks where the fight gets progressively harder the longer you're taking to beat it instead of a hard time limit where the fight just ends.

If enrage timer had to disappear, then maybe adding the damage buff caused by a death will be the thing to have like it was the case for Quickthinx and Brute Justice in Midas Savage.

man, I had really hoped this thread had died. I was once one of the only surviving DPS in a 25min long Construct 7 fight. People just died every time they were ressed until people just stopped trying. Fights need MORE enrage timers and players have to accept you can't smash your face into your keyboard and expect to clear stuff. I'm not saying we need super tight enrage timers...just SOMETHING. A fight that has average DPS is expected to be cleared in 11-12 minutes? give it an enrage at 14-15mins. That's being very considerate.

I see absolutely no reason why tanks and healers can't have DPS burst windows tailored to enrage timers.
That doesn't mean tanks and healers need to optimise their DPS 100% of the time, just during DPS checks.

This is what tank/dps stance is meant for, it's mean to be something you switch between as the situation calls for it.
Enrage timers being burst DPS checks are an entirely separate issue from 'the meta striving for peak DPS at all times.'

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I see absolutely no reason why tanks and healers can't have DPS burst windows tailored to enrage timers.
That doesn't mean tanks and healers need to optimise their DPS 100% of the time, just during DPS checks.

This is what tank/dps stance is meant for, it's mean to be something you switch between as the situation calls for it.
Enrage timers being burst DPS checks are an entirely separate issue from 'the meta striving for peak DPS at all times.'

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this sort of exists in a way, from what I understand. I dont tank/heal in savage content, but all of the damage going coming out is 100% predictable, so the tanks and healers I know know when its safe to go full DPS and not use cooldowns or heal at all. the only "situations" where things change is when someone fudges up a mechanic and extra healing is required, or a res.

I think we need to give the bosses chance to do direct crit auto attacks, that will kill a tank if they're not at 100% health. (so if their HP is 60'000 for example, it would do 59'999 damage, killing them even at full health if not in tank stance), and reduce enmity gains in DPS stance by 99% (perhaps make it so every attack they do in DPS stance reduces enmity). Make enmity actually have to be managed and you'll be able to reduce time in DPS stance. Enmity is literally given to tanks on a silver platter (even in DPS stance!), which is why most spend so long in DPS stance. Same for healers, our heals are so stupidly powerful that we're able to spend more time DPSing. I think I remember someone doing a Xelphatol run where their Regen and oGCD heals were enough to keep people alive, meaning they did something like 99% casts being damage spells. That would also need changing. Stop giving heals and enmity on a silver platter, and then we can spend more time healing.

HAHA OH WOW, THIS THREAD IS REAL!

I'd heard stories, I'd seen memes, but I had no idea this was an actual thing. This is hilarious.

Yes, down with enrages! Let's dissuade people from getting good, and actively encourage mediocrity. That's what this games needs more of - bad players pressing 1 > 2 > 3 and succeeding without putting any real effort in.

And I'm not even a raider!

i'm of two minds. i think accessibility is a good thing and mmo's tend to do better when they make their games more accessible to a larger audience. so sure, get rid of enrage timers on all non hard/ extreme content. more people will sub and play the game, meaning it maybe has a longer lifespan. but the extremely passionate fans for hard content aren't satisfied with extreme and hard modes, they want all content to have that push to do better and they will get loud about it. and it's generally a bad look to make these passionate gamers mad. still, making a few folks mad is worth less than making a game more accessible overall.

on the other hand... as someone who mostly plays tanks and healers... i know what often happens in fights with no enrage timers or dps checks, i will often end up fighting a boss with just one other person (the tank or the healer) for 10-15 minutes and be bored as hell. i guess in fights where dps aren't like launched off a platform, i can rez them mid-fight at least. still, i can see how this could get very boring fast. and boring long content is extremely not good for the longevity of an mmo.

I think the fact that HW/SB has added enrage/DPS timers to dungeon bosses and MSQ instances show the intent the devs have they want you to try and improve yourself

I'm trying to understand the logic behind this thread......








help?

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

I'm trying to understand the logic behind this thread......

help?

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Bads wanna bad without feeling bad.

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

Bads wanna bad without feeling bad.

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I'm a filthy casual scrub myself, not doing Ex modes cause I simply cannot commit myself to a schedule due work etc.
But I don't even like this idea.....
I try my best to be good and make stuff smooth for the content I tank, but seriously?
What are we trying to be here? World of Warcraft?

Enrage timers are a good thing because welfare progress is dumb.

You should need to git gud in order to get yourself the best loot and progress through the hardest content.

If anything there should be more pressure on people to git gud. Instead of holding everyone's hand all the way through the MSQ and leveling dungeons and even max level + expert dungeons.

This isn't to say you should put like a 3m timer on Sastasha and be all "Git gud or go home!" but that throughout the leveling process the game should point you in the direction of "Yeah... You kind of should be learning how to play a video game". Stuff like minimum ilevel requirements so that people need to keep on top of their gear. DPS checks in max level dungeons (With tighter ones in Expert). Going from leveling > max level > expert > raid/ex trials > savage > ultimate shouldn't be a shock for a player, it should be natural progression of increasing difficulty, demanding proportionately better gear and gameplay.

Also something I wanted to point out from the first page of this thread... Someone mentioned about no enrage timers meaning people will just grind through content with infinite raises... I'm curious as to why this game doesn't do what the majority of other games do? Which is limit the number of in combat raises that can be used per attempt? Like, WoW had this problem back before it started to cut down on raising so you had classes with self rez that would jump back up and could stack classes with in-combat rez skills and basically get a second life for 80% of the raid... It later then put limits on raising (2 raises for 10 man raid, 3 for a 25 man raid) and later still made self-rez count towards this number.

Limiting raises would also push people to a more "Git gud" style of play (Also, allowing more lenient enrage timers) as well as minimize the impact that things like RDM's infinite insta-raises has on job balance.

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Originally Posted by ScorpioShirica

i can see how this could get very boring fast. and boring long content is extremely not good for the longevity of an mmo.

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It's not even just about it getting boring... rather than being challenging, it would turn the content into "Throw our bodies at it long enough and we will succeed." The difficulty would have to be shifted entirely to mana longevity and that's a pretty horrible thing to deal with as a healer.

For it to be a VIABLE solution for tanks to "tank" aka the flawed and moronic "Tanks in perma tank stance" garbage... A healer would have to have their dps increased by 2.5 to 3k at minimum to compensate for the same loss to my own DPS on a tank. That is literally impossible, mathematically, because of the healing that healers have to do, regardless of me being in tank stance.

I don't think that some here understand the magnitude of what they are asking for. And after a certain point, Enmity and tanking dmg no longer factor in, due to diminishing returns.

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Originally Posted by Orbus

This practically begs the tank to hyper focus on dps.

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I hate to break it to you, but since 2013 this game practically begs everyone to hyper focus on dps, regardless of role. Allowing the DPS to take responsibility over their own aggro is actually a good thing in most contexts this game throws at you, that's just how it is. Class or role design from other games doesn't have to apply here.

They must be more severe. Too many dps are getting off the hook.

As a counterpoint, fights can be built to be challenging without involving Enrage timers. Just look to FFXI, the MMO predecessor to this one. There were PLENTY of challenging fights in that game, and only a bare handful had Enrages (and those few cases, to prevent folks from "zombieing" open-world mobs until folks literally started having real-life health issues).

I've never been fond of Enrage as a component to difficulty. It's a relatively recent addition to video games in general, and games were fun before this started to happen. If you can take what the boss throws at you, that should be enough.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

If you can take what the boss throws at you, that should be enough.

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But then that kinda removes responsibility for the DPS and then makes it purely on the tanks and healers to make sure nothing goes wrong. Its been used as an example before, but I think the last thing people want is a Construct 7 situation.

Great idea, let's give out raid gear for free aswell because it won't take any skill to clear anything anymore, deaths? Don't matter anymore! Free gear yay!
Honestly, no. Content is already easy enough.

They would need some sort of dps check. Otherwise people could just stack extra healers to trivialize things, beat bosses by attrition.

Maybe they could get rid of them and focus more on on mid fight dps checks, but I worry that may favor burst damage too much depending on how it's handled. A lot of fights have the 'mid fight kill adds before bar fills' dps check, but I don't think just having one of these is enough.

The issues with tanks/healers is more how those aspects of the game are designed. Assuming people aren't taking unavoidable damage, healers are free to spend a lot of time dps. Tanks only really need to worry about being proactively defensive when a tankbuster is coming up. So both of these roles have the room to contribute significant dps when things are going well.

If you remove enrage timers, you need something to replace them so that bosses don't become battles of attrition where you're stacked with healers to whether all the damage and throw out reses.

Maybe something like a stacking soft enrage system. You don't strictly have to beat the boss in 10 minutes, but if you don't, the boss starts doing more damage, and the longer it takes to kill the boss, the harder and harder he starts to hit. This could leave some leeway but you still can't just stack healers or else theoretically the soft enrage would grow to levels that can't be healed through. Maybe that would work maybe not, but you need SOMETHIGN to replace it.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I think we need to give the bosses chance to do direct crit auto attacks, that will kill a tank if they're not at 100% health. (so if their HP is 60'000 for example, it would do 59'999 damage, killing them even at full health if not in tank stance), and reduce enmity gains in DPS stance by 99% (perhaps make it so every attack they do in DPS stance reduces enmity). Make enmity actually have to be managed and you'll be able to reduce time in DPS stance. Enmity is literally given to tanks on a silver platter (even in DPS stance!), which is why most spend so long in DPS stance. Same for healers, our heals are so stupidly powerful that we're able to spend more time DPSing. I think I remember someone doing a Xelphatol run where their Regen and oGCD heals were enough to keep people alive, meaning they did something like 99% casts being damage spells. That would also need changing. Stop giving heals and enmity on a silver platter, and then we can spend more time healing.

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So, basically, remove any ounce of difficulty from a role to make it pretty much have 0 responsibility to the team aside from just sitting in a stance the entire time, while adding absolutely nothing that's interactive and interesting from a job-mechanics perspective.

At least being in Deliverance/Out of Grit/in Sword Oath makes you need to look at threat and use your cooldown economy with some prior thought put into it. And work with the other tank to use CD's to the make the most efficient use out of 2 tanks CD economy. And utilizing provoke and shirk to buff enmity at times where it can be used (or to do a swap so the other tank can blow all their cd's on a second buster, and then the random 3rd one is just immuned, which leads into the least amount of damage intake by the tanks, which means less healing, which means healers + tanks can use their damage to actually try and create a comfier barrier from enrage if DPS are struggling).

Just doing this would basically make the role essentially... braindead. And force a player to not utilize a good chunk of their class's kit because it ends up being counter intuitive if they go into a burst phase on a boss and just die cuz lul auto.

It'll be.. so much FuN to just... Butchers Block and... sit in Defiance and... do... nothing else. Real gripping gameplay. And the grit+ Dark Arts Power Slash gameplay, oh man, real interesting stuff.

It's like... lemme just... do 0 damage to the dragon in 010s, and camp it in a corner in Defiance, because if I go to kill a nail during the DPS check I could get crit for 70k and die from an auto attack (or just not have the tools to kill it in time b/c gotta do IB's over FC's). Real. Real fun idea. I can't wait.


It's still a dumb idea to punish an entire role for players who underperform in it. Or punish a role because, for whatever reason, people don't like to push buttons like Shadewalker, Smoke Screen, Diversion, Lucid Dreaming, Tactician, or other tanks not wanting to voke+shirk etc...

Dunno, but it's a lot more satisfying to me to use CD usage, particularly on DRK, and take 0 damage from a tank buster despite being out of tank stance while still trying to do what damage output I can to, again, try and kill the boss faster. Rather than being forced to camp a stance and be no different from a NPC bot doing the same.

And I mean, I guess that idea would help keep some boss fights 20+ minutes long without an enrage involved. Or if there was a softer enrage, like damage up stacks, well those auto's will just kill you anyway.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

But then that kinda removes responsibility for the DPS and then makes it purely on the tanks and healers to make sure nothing goes wrong. Its been used as an example before, but I think the last thing people want is a Construct 7 situation.

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Which ironically is still an issue even almost a full year after that raid was released. When enough people mess up or decided to do poorly and not care, that entire fight becomes a literal war of attrition that puts far too much stress on the tanks and especially the healers. I think like you said, a lot of people just don't realize that in some of these fights a lack of enrage timer isn't necessarily a boon. It just foists the stress off on other people. Which as a healer who /has/ been in a twenty minute long Construct 7 fight and a few others makes me a tad annoyed. Because often it isn't the case of the party 'taking what the boss throws at them' but more half the party constantly taking mechanics to the face and giving ulcers to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Which ironically is still an issue even almost a full year after that raid was released. When enough people mess up or decided to do poorly and not care, that entire fight becomes a literal war of attrition that puts far too much stress on the tanks and especially the healers. I think like you said, a lot of people just don't realize that in some of these fights a lack of enrage timer isn't necessarily a boon. It just foists the stress off on other people. Which as a healer who /has/ been in a twenty minute long Construct 7 fight and a few others makes me a tad annoyed. Because often it isn't the case of the party 'taking what the boss throws at them' but more half the party constantly taking mechanics to the face and giving ulcers to everyone else.

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Don't forget the part where after the fight ends, someone says "good job guys". I recoil so hard when I see that line and my internal screaming clock instantly seems to be all hours at once.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

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That's only going to be part of it. I want enmity and defensive cooldowns to be more important to fights (active mitigation like Warrior's Inner Beast, removal of oGCD heals, etc). In this game, everything is just a glorified DPS. Want a more heal focused or tank focused role? Better play another game, because in this game everything is a DPS just with "tanks" having a bit beefier defensive stats, and "healers" being able to heal. The memes about blue and green DPS haven't come from nowhere. That's what I want, is it to be less about how much damage tanks and healers can push out, and more about tanking and healing.

There'd still be a time and a place for pushing out damage as a tank (during say DPS checks where no tanking or healing is involved), and the very best could still manage it outside of those phases, but I want the focus to shift on that. I like healing, but in this game, I feel like a DPS with a few healing spells at my disposal. Because tanking and healing is so braindead easy for their primary role that if you're not spending 99.9% of your time in tank stance, you're doing garbage. And the devs continue to buff tank enmity and healing potencies, instead of making tanking and healing more difficult in their primary roles.

Notice how the enmity thing I suggested would make swapping to DPS stance much more strategic, instead of just "Grab aggro, go Deliverance, ham out as much damage as possible". Now there's enmity to worry about. Tanks and healers are having their primary roles made easier and easier (while DPS combos still remain kinda challenging by comparison), all to try and woo people who want to see big numbers, but you won't be able to do that unless you make the numbers high enough that DPS become redundant. So make their primary roles more difficult instead.

Without a dps check you can take a bunch of tanks and healers and not even need to bring a dps.