Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

You should be ashamed for what you said. Healer can't do mistakes? Delete your account if you don't want to see anyone making mistakes.

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Nah~ Neither tanks or healers can make mistakes~ If I make a mistake on my CD rotation as the MT and I'm spending the majority of my time in dps stance, I fully expect to get kicked if something goes wrong and we wipe. I just hold the healers equally accountable, and no one likes to be accountable.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Nah~ Neither tanks or healers can make mistakes~ If I make a mistake on my CD rotation as the MT and I'm spending the majority of my time in dps stance, I fully expect to get kicked if something goes wrong and we wipe. I just hold the healers equally accountable, and no one likes to be accountable.

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Honestly, I would more likely kick someone (not that I ever kick people) with a toxic attitude like yours, than a tank/healer who made a mistake, apologised, and talked about what went wrong (even better if they ask for advice). The reason is that they are trying to improve themselves, they aren't perfect but they are trying, that is how mistakes happen. You would be right if they wiped and said nothing, and then continued wiping, but mistakes are a big part of improving, and I admire those who push themselves, even if they fall short sometimes. I do not admire those who think that minimal input is a satisfactory bar for a competant player.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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You call it toxic, I call it being pragmatic and being held accountable. Seeing as I spend the majority of my time in dps stance, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I believe people should give minimal effort, but if playing SwO/Gritless is a bad thing, I'll be even more ecstatic to call out CS abusing healers! Honestly, I just hold players to the same standard I hold myself. <3 If you wanna play more risky, you better be able to walk~

It's ultimately just common sense, though. If a player makes a mistake that causes a wipe, it's only natural to presume their prompt dismissal.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You call it toxic, I call it being pragmatic and being held accountable. Seeing as I spend the majority of my time in dps stance, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I believe people should give minimal effort, but if playing SwO/Gritless is a bad thing, I'll be even more ecstatic to call out CS abusing healers! Honestly, I just hold players to the same standard I hold myself. <3 If you wanna play more risky, you better be able to walk~

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I seem to be confused, you either want healers to play with minimal effort, or play perfectly, thats what I seem to be getting from your argument. How exactly do you want healers to be playing?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I seem to be confused, you either want healers to play with minimal effort, or play perfectly, thats what I seem to be getting from your argument. How exactly do you want healers to be playing?

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Whatever ensures a prompt completion of the objective. I'd rather spend 18-20 minutes with a healer that isn't comfortable and would rather not dps than spend 40 minutes with a healer trying to fit a round peg in a square hole and failing at both their main job and their secondary role.

I have no interest in teaching a healer or a tank how to perform the basics of their role when I don't have the mentor crown enabled. If I do? I'm in for the long haul. If I don't? Can't be bothered. Learn the basics on someone else's time, not mine. I have five more stages of the relic to grind out, I have minimal interest in wasting time with even one wipe, when I have two light grinds and roughly 30k lore I still need to farm up.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Given all the comments in this particular page so far - I'm wondering:



How many tanks do their mass pulls without a tank stance on? I'm genuinely beginning to think this poster's issues regarding "bad healers" stems from their lack of tank stance being used, especially if mass pulls are done outside of tank stance. From my own experiences, the vast majority of PuG tanks who mass pull do so in tank stance and reserve their use of DPS stance for when a pack is chopped down to a smaller level or strictly for DPS after hate is cemented on bosses.

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I don't tank dungeons, but trials and raids. Oftentimes the dps aren't particularly competent, and an instant queue leads to a 20 minute+ dungeon run with excessive tank stance use, while going as a dps means a 1/2 minute queue and 15 minutes or less runs.

Given all the comments in this particular page so far - I'm wondering:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Seeing as I spend the majority of my time in dps stance,

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How many tanks do their mass pulls without a tank stance on? I'm genuinely beginning to think this poster's issues regarding "bad healers" stems from their lack of tank stance being used, especially if mass pulls are done outside of tank stance. From my own experiences, the vast majority of PuG tanks who mass pull do so in tank stance and reserve their use of DPS stance for when a pack is chopped down to a smaller level or strictly for DPS after hate is cemented on bosses.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I have five more stages of the relic to grind out, I have minimal interest in wasting time with even one wipe, when I have two light grinds and roughly 30k lore I still need to farm up.

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Not to boil your post down so much, and while I agree that not having the crown on vs having it on constitutes a total differentiation on your responsibility to help teach other players... I find this particular argument to be rather telling about the way content and systems are presented to us and what the player base chooses to make out of them.

"I have five more stages of the relic to grind out..."

I always find this to be a weak argument for trying to rush people through content that's technically irrelevant to you because all you want is the carrot at the end. You don't have five stages of the relic to grind out... you have five stages of the relic to work through. Your pace of it is your own construction as the relics were never designed to be done in an "all or nothing, burn it down as fast as you can" manner. The relic was designed as a casual alternative to a raid weapon for those people who don't have the time to devote to raid day in and day out. It's meant to be taken slowly, as you do other things. It is the mentality of the players that everything must be done fast or, 'OMG why r u wastin mah timez?'

Now it's not all your fault, the fact that most of the steps are based off of cooperative content completion can certainly raise the feeling of people taking up your precious 'timez'. But that you choose to view the relic as something to get done ASAP for some reason or another is entirely your own doing and your impatience with such things stems entirely from the fact of it.

Once more, though, I am of the camp that you should be DPSing when you're not healing, but let's please keep the reasoning rational and based on the most efficient way to play a class for the benefit of yourself and those around you, not just because you needed your shiny like yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

How many tanks do their mass pulls without a tank stance on? I'm genuinely beginning to think this poster's issues regarding "bad healers" stems from their lack of tank stance being used, especially if mass pulls are done outside of tank stance. From my own experiences, the vast majority of PuG tanks who mass pull do so in tank stance and reserve their use of DPS stance for when a pack is chopped down to a smaller level or strictly for DPS after hate is cemented on bosses.

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It is much more effective on WAR and DRK to drop tank stance on big pulls. Not only does stuff die faster but the HP return from Bloodbath is usually sufficient.

WAR in deliverance with Bloodbath and paired with another buff (like Intuition or Vengence) is nearrrrly completely self sustainable while in Deliverance. You may be need the odd spot heal but for the most part they can self sustain. Similar story with DRK.

PLD well they don't have any AoE damage over and above Scorn so on a big pull there is pretty much no point to be in Sword Oath, so you might as well Shield.

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Originally Posted by Altena

It is much more effective on WAR and DRK to drop tank stance on big pulls. Not only does stuff die faster but the HP return from Bloodbath is usually sufficient.

WAR in deliverance with Bloodbath and paired with another buff (like Intuition or Vengence) is nearrrrly completely self sustainable while in Deliverance. You may be need the odd spot heal but for the most part they can self sustain. Similar story with DRK.

PLD well they don't have any AoE damage over and above Scorn so on a big pull there is pretty much no point to be in Sword Oath, so you might as well Shield.

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I certainly agree with this but I still tend to pull in Defiance until I get the full pack gathered and positioned as I'm securing enmity at this point and not focused on DPS while running down whatever hallway dungeon I'm currently in. The extra enmity from Defiance should keep everything locked on me while the ranged can still attack while we are in motion. Once I stop though and everything is grouped, it's all Deliverance.

Yeah, with Blood Price up, DA+AD is a very significant of life steal, even with the 3 second limitation. I've seen fairly few DRK actually use tank stance while they have either that combo or DA+DD/DA+DP up, since they have massive evasion on large pulls with that.

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Originally Posted by Dement

I certainly agree with this but I still tend to pull in Defiance until I get the full pack gathered and positioned as I'm securing enmity at this point and not focused on DPS while running down whatever hallway dungeon I'm currently in. The extra enmity from Defiance should keep everything locked on me while the ranged can still attack while we are in motion. Once I stop though and everything is grouped, it's all Deliverance.

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Oh yes absolutely. Pull in Defiance. That should be a given. Also making sure to flash / tomahawk everything so the healer can toss a regen on you early without pulling hate on any stragglers (while you're still in Defiance which snapshots the healing potency increase). Popping Convalescence just before reaching the stop point is also a very good idea regardless which tank you're on - again to further increase the potency of the regen. This should allow plenty of time for them to toggle Cleric on and toss out a few nukes.

I can't believe this ridiculous thread is still going.

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Originally Posted by MisterLucie

I can't believe this ridiculous thread is still going.

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That's what happens when the community is so divided on a subject such as this and each side has to have the last word. Though the pro healer dps side does seem much more volatile on the matter.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

That's what happens when the community is so divided on a subject such as this and each side has to have the last word. Though the pro healer dps side does seem much more volatile on the matter.

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Both sides are pretty combative actually...


I personally do try and remain civil.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

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Both sides are pretty equally volatile and aggressive. Can't say I've seen anything less than flat-out animosity from the two.

I think middleground is best. Focus on healing if you don't know the fights well, or the dungeons well, or if the tank feels particularly squishy, or if you're low on mana. Basically, if you're not comfortable, focus on heals. If you are comfortable, do the usual dps and heal when you need to.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

You're allowed to votekick for differing playstyles.

And healers SHOULD dps during their downtime, if for no other reason than you'll get bored standing there staring at the boss as a puddle of drool forms at your feet.

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You are not, it is not one of the options. Afk, Offline, Cheating, or harassment, no other is allowed. Healers DPS during downtime if the team is sufficiently healed.

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Originally Posted by ShikiRyougi

You are not, it is not one of the options. Afk, Offline, Cheating, or harassment, no other is allowed. Healers DPS during downtime if the team is sufficiently healed.

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But you are. GMS have confirmed that you can kick someone with varying playatyles from you even if there is no a specific option for it. Those options are not all encompasing, they have said to just use one of the other options and it is allowed.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

But you are. GMS have confirmed that you can kick someone with varying playatyles from you even if there is no a specific option for it. Those options are not all encompasing, they have said to just use one of the other options and it is allowed.

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then what's even the point of the dialogue box that says misuse can land punishment, where did a GM ever say it's ok to kick for playstyle?

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Originally Posted by ShikiRyougi

You are not, it is not one of the options. Afk, Offline, Cheating, or harassment, no other is allowed. Healers DPS during downtime if the team is sufficiently healed.

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It is up to a GM's discretion if a vote kick was valid. People kick for a wide range of reasons not listed directly. Whether or not it was justified is based on an investigation should the kicked player submit a ticket.

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Originally Posted by ShikiRyougi

then what's even the point of the dialogue box that says misuse can land punishment, where did a GM ever say it's ok to kick for playstyle?

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About 3 years ago. Old post, someone will probably dig it up sometime or another. Essentially everything is up to individual investigations carried out by the GMs should a ticket be submitted for abuse. The GM determines the actions taken on a case by case basis.

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Originally Posted by ShikiRyougi

then what's even the point of the dialogue box that says misuse can land punishment, where did a GM ever say it's ok to kick for playstyle?

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It's not that it is allowed, it is that GMs do not want to get involved with grey area disputes and it is easier to let the kick happen than take a side. It's not a case of being allowed to kick people based on differing playstyles (please don't have this mentality Bixillarla), it's that disputing it is out of the GMs hands because it is a personal matter that doesn't break the ToS.

What you can do, is if you are being cussed out for DPSing as a healer, you could dispute it on the grounds of harrassment. It's actually more difficult to dispute a heal only healer being kicked because they can legitimately be kicked for being AFK too much.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

It's not that it is allowed, it is that GMs do not want to get involved with grey area disputes and it is easier to let the kick happen than take a side. It's not a case of being allowed to kick people based on differing playstyles (please don't have this mentality Bixillarla), it's that disputing it is out of the GMs hands because it is a personal matter that doesn't break the ToS

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Not quite correct, GMs have and do take action against abuse. If it is considered abuse though is dependent on the investigating GM.

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Originally Posted by ShikiRyougi

You are not, it is not one of the options. Afk, Offline, Cheating, or harassment, no other is allowed. Healers DPS during downtime if the team is sufficiently healed.

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I have repeatedly kicked healers for being so dps crazy that they were letting the party die to easily healed unavoidable AoE's, even though a full wipe never fully happened. Granted, I never initiated the vote personally but I agreed with the motion. I'd rather have a smooth run, thnx.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I have repeatedly kicked healers for being so dps crazy that they were letting the party die to easily healed unavoidable AoE's, even though a full wipe never fully happened. Granted, I never initiated the vote personally but I agreed with the motion. I'd rather have a smooth run, thnx.

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I actually very rarely see that (and I'm a tank), must be a datacenter thing I guess

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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I love you cause you are the only person here who understands how roles work <3

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Originally Posted by Keikun

I love you cause you are the only person here who understands how roles work <3

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Assuming the person you quoted is absolutely wrong, that's funny.

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Originally Posted by Keikun

I love you cause you are the only person here who understands how roles work <3

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Finally someone who agree's with me. And then these elitists are gonna tell me it's silly for an OT to be afk for around 90% of the fight when there's no add, but that's just how roles work.
Edit: Also once there was this elitist who told me to use my AST cards to buff the raid. How silly, I am a healer, not a buffer!

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

Finally someone who agree's with me. And then these elitists are gonna tell me it's silly for an OT to be afk for around 90% of the fight when there's no add, but that's just how roles work.
Edit: Also once there was this elitist who told me to use my AST cards to buff the raid. How silly, I am a healer, not a buffer!

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That's like saying it's fine for the tank to be afk during the Giruveganaus fight (last fight of Stone Vigil HM, I case anyone forgot) because the bosses don't have aggro tables... If you're basing what you should be doing during a fight solely on the core role of the job you're on then you're missing the point entirely of playing in a group.

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Originally Posted by Keikun

I love you cause you are the only person here who understands how roles work <3

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I think the vast majority of the posters in this thread understand how roles work. Most of them also understand when there are opportunities to expand past these defined roles into other aspects of their kit effectively, therefore adding a positive contribution to the group in the process.

I said it before and i will say it again, if a DPS ask a healer to DPS, I guess your DPS suck that much you need to ask someone else to do it for you, so instead of asking a heaelr to DPS why dont you stop being lazy and learn your rotations so you can do those "speed runs" better?

Also, tanks, If you ask a healer to DPS, I would ask you to go full sword oath and just do "damage combos" not a single "enmity combo" for the entire run and your enmity MUST be higher than the whole party, if you cant do that, you are lazy and you are NOT playing your class well.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I think the vast majority of the posters in this thread understand how roles work. Most of them also understand when there are opportunities to expand past these defined roles into other aspects of their kit effectively, therefore adding a positive contribution to the group in the process.

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Guess what? you are wrong =)

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Originally Posted by Keikun

Also, tanks, If you ask a healer to DPS, I would ask you to go full sword oath and just do "damage combos" not a single "enmity combo" for the entire run and your enmity MUST be higher than the whole party, if you cant do that, you are lazy and you are NOT playing your class well.

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This seems like a very bad attitude, most tanks will lose aggro doing there damage combos against decent DPS, there just isn't enough enmity modifier with the damage combos and DPS by design will do more damage and hence build more aggro.

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Originally Posted by Keikun

I said it before and i will say it again, if a DPS ask a healer to DPS, I guess your DPS suck that much you need to ask someone else to do it for you, so instead of asking a heaelr to DPS why dont you stop being lazy and learn your rotations so you can do those "speed runs" better?

Also, tanks, If you ask a healer to DPS, I would ask you to go full sword oath and just do "damage combos" not a single "enmity combo" for the entire run and your enmity MUST be higher than the whole party, if you cant do that, you are lazy and you are NOT playing your class well.

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Wow... Sorry, need to step out of the thread now and have my blood pressure checked due to the massive dose of sodium...

https://i.imgflip.com/1jmhi0.jpg

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Originally Posted by Keikun

asking a heaelr to DPS why dont you stop being lazy and learn your rotations.

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It's easier to ask someone else to do it. There's no shortage of dpsing healers after all, so DPS don't have to work very hard.

I said it before and i will say it again, if a DPS ask an AST to use cards, I guess your DPS suck that much you need to ask someone else to do it for you, so instead of asking a ASTs to give balance why dont you stop being lazy and learn your rotations so you can do those "speed runs" better?

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Originally Posted by Keikun

Guess what? you are wrong =)

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Prove it. =)

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

This seems like a very bad attitude, most tanks will lose aggro doing there damage combos against decent DPS, there just isn't enough enmity modifier with the damage combos and DPS by design will do more damage and hence build more aggro.

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Oh really? then dont ask a healer to DPS if the tank and dps bars are going down a lot cause they cant even dodge AOE, because I guess, like most people here, they think "Why shuold I dogde AOEs if its the healers job to heal me for my...not so smart behavior...

If you are not doing what I said, you are not playing your class "properly".

Edit: Im out now, I dont wanna get that much salt the tanks and dps are throwing here =) they want to tell others how to play their games but they dont like others to tell them how to play theirs. "pro gamers"

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Originally Posted by Keikun

Oh really? then dont ask a healer to DPS if the tank and dps bars are going down a lot cause they cant even dodge AOE, because I guess, like most people here, they think "Why shuold I dogde AOEs if its the healers job to heal me for my...not so smart behavior...

If you are not doing what I said, you are not playing your class "properly".

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You don't understand how aggro works though

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Originally Posted by Keikun

I said it before and i will say it again, if a DPS ask a healer to DPS, I guess your DPS suck that much you need to ask someone else to do it for you

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Omg those worlds best DD players who parse the highest and whose healers also parse the highest must be super duper lazy and bad!

People just stoped being serious. This thread is filled with jokes now.