3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Balipu

No, I meant it literally.

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https://68.media.tumblr.com/533dd101...vfd5o5_400.gif

Since as far as I can tell by searching, nobody has brought it up yet, I'll just launch into some speculation here. The more I look at Zurvan, the more I'm convinced that he and Ifrit are somehow connected, possibly even manifestations of the same entity.

First, and most obviously there are significant physical similarities between Ifrit and Zurvan's lower body.

http://i.imgur.com/iCGwINY.jpg

In addition, about 20 seconds into the trailer, what appear to be Zurvan's worshippers are visible for a few seconds, and they look a lot like Reptoids. Which matches up with the "race of centaurs" who were meant to follow him (although, the lore book states that Reptoids are Allagan creations rather than a native Meracydian race, more on that later) It's possible given the similarities between the two, that the Reptoids eventually became the Amalj'aa, although unlike the Iskalion/Ixal connection this hasn't been confirmed either way yet.

We know from this post that primal summoning is affected by the temperament of the summoners. A lot changes over the course of 5000 years. Over time, cultural memory of Zurvan's centaur form warped to become the modern, melted down Ifrit somehow; perhaps something to do with the fiery form we've had that one screenshot of.

The lore book entry for the Reptoids states that they were controlled via "a tiny metal box capable of emitting lightning-aspected shocks" brought into use specifically for the Meracydian campaign. It's possible that the first Reptoids to be sent to fight in Meracydia fell under the influence of the Primal, and the control boxes were implemented to try and prevent this.

From the Amalj'aa creation myth; "The world he spawned was filled with filled with beasts bereft of reason or intellect, each fighting an endless, mindless battle for survival. But there was one race of great lizards whose ferocity so pleased the Lord of the Inferno that he bequeathed unto them flickering motes shared from his own primordial flame. This sacred fire took purchase in the lizards' souls, burning away frailty and weakness". This may be recollection of Zurvan's initial tempering of the Reptoids, or burning the control boxes out of subsequent groups of followers.

I think there was an entry that says that reptoids were created using the genetics of an especially vicious beast tribe of lizardmen in southern Aldenard, which is also where Amalj'aa live. That said, I think that Belias might've been the Primal of these Amalj'aa at the time of the Allagan conquest

But yeah, the similarities are there and it's possible that the idea/ legend of Zurvan might've influenced the Amalj'aa belief of Ifrit in some way.

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Gather round, now, and learn you of the fiery god of the Amalj'aa. A demon wreathed in ever-shrieking flames

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In the lore book about Zurvan

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...Records describe the "Demon" striding into battle girded head to foot in armor formed of unshifting flame

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Well Belias might be stage in the (d)evolution from Zurvan to Ifrit.
Original lizardmen: Zurvan
Reptoids: Belias
Amalj'aa: Ifrit

Or Ifrit and Belias are two ways to remember Zurvan.

It's a bit of a crackpot idea...

But what if the reason there was a seal and the reason Midgardsormr was tasked with guarding the area around Silvertear Lake was because it's a wound created by the removal of Zodiark? Such a location might certainly be of interest to the Ascians as part of their long term goals, and it might in part explain why Eorzea as a whole is such an aether rich realm - it's overall closest to a location where the aether of Hydaelyn might find it the easiest to come into and out of our world.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

It's a bit of a crackpot idea...

But what if the reason there was a seal and the reason Midgardsormr was tasked with guarding the area around Silvertear Lake was because it's a wound created by the removal of Zodiark? Such a location might certainly be of interest to the Ascians as part of their long term goals, and it might in part explain why Eorzea as a whole is such an aether rich realm - it's overall closest to a location where the aether of Hydaelyn might find it the easiest to come into and out of our world.

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You know, I really like this idea. I hope it turns out to be true.

Something that just occurred to me: how exactly is Silvertear pronounced? I don't recall hearing in any voiced dialogue, but I could be wrong.

For a long time now always thought that the tear in silvertear was what happens when you cry (teardrops)

But I wonder if it means tear as in ripped apart. If so such definitions include:

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a hole or split in something caused by it having been pulled apart forcefully.

come apart; rip.

pull or rip (something) apart or to pieces with force.

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With Hydaelyn splitting (tearing) the world into 14 pieces, then Silvertear could be a result of it?

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Originally Posted by Berethos

It's a bit of a crackpot idea...

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I'd had the same thought for a moment, but it floated by without me chasing it. For everything that made sense, something didn't; the neutrality led me to just leave it on the "keep an eye out" list, lol.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Something that just occurred to me: how exactly is Silvertear pronounced?

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涙 = Tears; Weeping
Silver Tears Orchestrion Roll, Diamond Tear, Hraesvelgr's Tear, Deepeye Tears, Ahriman Tears,

ティア (Tia)
Onyx Tears, Greentear

ティアー (Tiaa)
Primal Tears, Silvertear

Aetherial Tear is 裂け目 (Dimensional Fissure)

German and French call the lake by Silver-Tear as in crying.

Japanese uses 泪 for the Tear in Silvertear. It's an alternative form of 涙 (tear; weeping), but one that is rare outside of artistic use.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While the Garleans do not do what they do purely for evil, Gaius himself literally said that he was trying to conquer Eorzea because he could. Yes, they do do this for kicks.



... while how that attitude came about can be explained, that doesn't justify it or their actions. The Garleans are not strictly speaking evil, but that doesn't mean their actions are justified to anyone but themselves - and everyone is justified from their own perspective, so that doesn't really fly.

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I think you are missing some earlier points that show Where Gaius and his directs are coming from and the conflict between Eorzea's and Garlemeld's approach. Namely, that Gaius has such a low opinion about the governance and people of Eorzea that he might as well put the rest of it under Garlean rule.

Note their interactions and responses in the face of the Primal question. The Garleans, as far as we know, do not play nice with primal summoning beast tribes, And the existing primals power being recorded was seen as pathetic according to Nero, and Gaius. Eorzea(pre 2.0)we have an already divided country, reduced to temporary fixes and independant negotiation against beast tribes under threat of the local primal flipping their lid and wrecking everything. It took Garlemeld knocking on their door to finally bring up the Grand Company idea, and any outside observer could see they were still well on their way to chaos, and that regime change can only help stabilize the situation before Eorzea was awash in Tidal Waves, Hellfire, and whatever motherly 2hr Nophica might have.

Im not going to state any real life examples here. But assuming one existed, im willing to bet seeing it would not inspire confidence from the "Garleans" that "Eorzean" example is little more than a tinderbox running on hopes and a prayer. Until there is some common ground found between these two, there is going to be a lot of lives lost, and we are on the side who pins stability on one lucky girl/boy and their motley crew...little doubt that such an approach requires convincing from those that aren't so fortunate to have a Warrior of Light, at least one that isn't slaughtering their brave men and women.:)

We are two days away from the patch. Ohgods.

Here comes a new challenger! Time to turn up the heat!

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Originally Posted by Kallera

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Gaius' opinion of Eorzean governance is irrelevant. Taking away Eorzean freedom and independence is. Just because you don't agree with a nation's system of governance doesn't mean you have the right to take away their freedom and dictate how they should live. Yes, there are flaws in the Eorzean system - which is based on Hellenic Greece's city-state system, which was known for internal strife - but there are flaws in every system. Proclaiming your own system of governance superior is exceedingly arrogant, and oppressing them is a surefire way to earn their ire.

Eorzeans take the same approach to handling beast tribes and Primals the Garleans do - the difference is that Eorzeans are willing to negotiate with the non-tempered factions of those beast tribes, and put down the primal when it is summoned, instead of declaring genocide the end-all be-all solution along with imprisoning those Primals. While going genocide on the beast tribes would solve the issue of that individual Primal, and imprisoning those Primals will mitigate the threat of it, as shown by history those are short-term solutions at best. Furthermore, as we now know anyone and everyone is capable of summoning a Primal with enough aether and a fervent wish, so to completely remove the threat of Primals would require cleansing Hydaelyn of all life. I'm sure everyone doesn't need to be told how that isn't an acceptable solution.

The Garleans don't need to have confidence Eorzean methods. As long as Eorzea is handling its own problems and not causing danger or damage to Garlean people or territory, they have no right to military intervention, much less conquest. While I do agree that Eorzean governments should not rely on our power to solve their issues time and again (which I applaud Nero for calling them out on), it should not be forgot that they are capable and willing to deal with Primals without us - it just so happens that the Echo lets us save countless lives from being lost, making us a much more efficient solution than using human wave tactics. It should also not be forgot that a decent chunk of Garlean infantry is composed of forced conscripts from conquered territories, so half the time it's not Garlemald's "brave men and women" we're slaughtering but people who had no choice in the matter. As I've explored before that is a questionable thing to do, but the consequences of doing nothing instead are far too dire.

As the aggressors in every conflict we've seen involving them, Garlemald should be well aware and accepting of casualties resulting from their actions. Complaining about soldier deaths resulting from wartime actions, and civilian deaths resulting from insurgency attacks, is refusing to accept responsibility for the consequences of your actions. When you go on the warpath and then take away others' liberties, expect those sorts of things. (As someone who can play a very ruthless political game in Magic: The Gathering's Commander format, I am very well aware of how oppression makes others angry at you and exactly what kind of reprisals it inspires. I factor those reprisals into my plans and prepare for them, as well as accept losses as necessary instead of whining about how unfair it is that I'm being an oppressive douche and people are going after my throat for it.)

The Garleans don't need confidence in Eorzean methods, but unless Eorzean actions are being directly harmful to Garlemald or its citizens there is no justification for their repeated attempts to take away Eorzean liberty. Taking away others' liberties is a surefire way to get them pissed off at you, and you should expect and accept reprisals (and if you're really wise, anticipate and prepare for such things). The same holds true for each and every other region and nation Garlemald has conquered and plans to conquer.

Well if Primals suck away the whole planet's aether, every primal summoning is directly harmful to Garlemald. Sure, their methods aren't that good either, but so far we have only seen the ideas of Eula, who was tempered by Bahamut, and Gaius, who had Lahabrea whipsering into his ears. Not really sure what Regula wants to do, on whose orders, but we will learn in two days.

In 4.0 we will see how Garleans deal with primals on their own turf. The Ananta do summon their Primal, so it will probably not perfect. Then again this will be the first time the 8 man raid is not a primal.

Idk, Cilia just seems hellbent on making Garlemald out to be irredeemable villains, hence the long-winded rants to defend this narrative at all points, as if it will make one whit of difference what the developers eventually do.

I will await with bated breath her rationalisations for how Ala Mhigo does not qualify as an irredeemable villain, in spite of maintaining equally bad relations with its neighbours prior to Garlean conquest, and with Ala Mhigans apparently having learnt nothing from it since then, to the point that none of their hosts like them very much.

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As I've explored before that is a questionable thing to do, but the consequences of doing nothing instead are far too dire.

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"Explored"? Seriously? Are you writing a PHD on the topic?

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Well if Primals suck away the whole planet's aether, every primal summoning is directly harmful to Garlemald. Sure, their methods aren't that good either, but so far we have only seen the ideas of Eula, who was tempered by Bahamut, and Gaius, who had Lahabrea whipsering into his ears. Not really sure what Regula wants to do, on whose orders...

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Primal summonings are indirectly harmful to Garlemald unless it's on Garlean turf. The Primal issue is not a short-term crisis, but a persistent problem that will eventually kill the planet. In overall effect it's probably comparable to the Mako energy problem of VII - it probably won't be tomorrow, or after breakfast, but a Primal being summoned for prolonged periods of time will eventually kill the planet. (Bismarck is literally summoned for ~75% of Heavensward's story, with no visible detriment to the material plane beyond consuming islands in the Sea of Clouds. That's bad, but far less severe than we've been led to believe - and is not a threat to Garlemald or Garleans in the slightest if they'd leave well enough alone. We solved the issue without using the Gration to blow Bismarck to bits or going genocide on the Vanu Vanu, so their intervention would have been unnecessary.)

We know that Varis zos Galvus, the new Emperor of Garlmald, would sooner genocide the beast tribes than try to make peace with them and remove the threat of primals that way. This isn't just a crazy / rogue legate, this is the Emperor's (and by extension nation's) stance on the issue. Given they now know non-beastmen can summon primals, or will very soon... how do you suppose they'll react?

The Garleans may handle whatever primals crop up in their own territory however they wish, so long as they are willing to accept the consequences of doing so. Do not dictate to Eorzeans (or Othardians, etc.) how to do so, and do not forcefully intervene if you deem their solutions inadequate so long as your nation is not being directly harmed.

Ultimately what matters most is whether or not Garlemald is justified from Garlemald's perspective - when discussing whether or not Garlemald is justified and the lore book pretty much confirms that outright. The appeals to emotion based on real world idealism and modern day morality are largely irrelevant. That doesn't, however, suggest that Eorzea isn't justified in fighting back or that Eorzea isn't justified in its stance. Neither side is perfect but both have solid reasons to act the way that they do - and it's pretty much a given that it's all going to lead to quite an interesting and morally complicated mess as we move forward. Much like the situation between the Ishgardians and the Dravanians but even more dire due to dealing with both sides largely consisting of humanoids.

I must admit to being a little confused by Gaius' opinions being cited when it's convenient to paint Garlemald as lacking in justification but then suddenly being brushed off as 'irrelevant' when it comes to something that does paint a more morally complex picture. Oh well.

Anything to keep the narrative up. Something to 'explore', I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Here comes a new challenger! Time to turn up the heat!

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I think you may have overcooked it a bit, lol.

The spirit I agree with; you answered a few counter points how I would have, for starters; but the defense seems to go a bit too far in that specifics seem to over-reach and contradict themselves.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Just because you don't agree with a nation's system of governance doesn't mean you have the right to take away their freedom and dictate how they should live.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Garleans don't need confidence in Eorzean methods, but unless Eorzean actions are being directly harmful to Garlemald or its citizens there is no justification for their repeated attempts to take away Eorzean liberty.

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The Garleans are convinced that the world is going to end. Garlemald is part of the world. They believe that invasion of other nations and eradication of things that put the world at risk is not only self-defense, but the responsibility of those strong enough to do so. It is a righteous calling. They're wrong, and they're going about it wrong to boot, but it's what they believe.

Taken in its entirety, Gaius speech has nothing to do with "disagreeing with governance". It's a warped chain of logic:

1. False gods kill the planet.
2. Eorzea worships false gods.
3. Eorzea's worship of false gods is due to its weak leadership.
4. By killing you, it will show that I am strong.
5. Without you in the way, I can overthrow Eorzean leadership.
6. With strong me in charge of Eorzea, Eorzea will have no use for false gods.
7. Without false gods Eorzea will be no threat to the planet.
8. I must conquer Eorzea to save the planet.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Furthermore, as we now know anyone and everyone is capable of summoning a Primal with enough aether and a fervent wish, so to completely remove the threat of Primals would require cleansing Hydaelyn of all life. I'm sure everyone doesn't need to be told how that isn't an acceptable solution.

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Garlemald is already in the wrong; we don't need to misrepresent them by exaggerating their approach. Capability is not intent. The Garleans target those with intent, and then everyone associated with them gets taken along for the ride. That's a bit closer to "a few bad apples spoil the bunch" than "wipe out eveyone even remotely capable of doing the things we don't like."

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Garleans don't need to have confidence Eorzean methods. As long as Eorzea is handling its own problems and not causing danger or damage to Garlean people or territory, they have no right to military intervention

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Who judges how well Eorzea is handling its problems? I mean, the Warrior of Light is doing a pretty great job and Garlemald would botch it, objectively. But do they have no reason to disagree with that sentiment? Look at the 4.0 previews.

LOTS AND LOTS OF NEW PRIMALS

They last time they didn't get the job done fast enough, the Seventh Umbral Calamity happened. Imagine if Louisoix hadn't cleaned that up. They think they can do better. They're wrong, but they do.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Primal summonings are indirectly harmful to Garlemald unless it's on Garlean turf.

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I disagree. Primals are how the Ascians give power to the desperate and escalate conflicts. Conflicts lead to Calamities. Calamities have the potential to impact the entire world (and destroy entire other realms).

It's like saying the New World had no stake in the War of the Magi because it was on another continent. How many cities were destroyed all over the world by rising sea levels because of what has happening on someone else's turf?

That's not to say Garlemald isn't still wrong - they think they de-escalate conflict, but they just put a lid on it and let it pressurize. The inspire desperation and hate. Putting Ala Mhigo in a box didn't work any better than putting Bahamut in a box.

But being confident in your ideology doesn't make their ideology vanish. Both ideologies are worthless in comparison to the Warrior of Light actually de-escalating conflicts and attacking the roots of Ascian influence.

As far as the genocide of the Beast Tribes go...let's not ignore the frequent trips by the Warrior of Light and other Eorzeans into the heart of various Beast Tribe's territory to slaughter and terrorise them left, right and centre for daring to summon a Primal/Eikon to defend themselves. This occurs even after 'peace' is made with branches of the same Beast Tribes who don't want to summon a Primal.

It's also stated in the lore book that Garlemald sought 'whatever means were necessary' to defend their interests back when they were being pushed around. It's very likely that they did seek more peaceful methods to survive yet it did not amount to anything.

Then, of course, there's also the matter of the Warrior of Light actively hunting down both Garleans and members of various Beast Tribes with the sole intention of sucking up their aether/souls to empower their weapon. This is often glossed over and yet if Garlemald ever does something like that I bet it'll never stop being brought up.

In short...it's far from 'black and white'. If those of us caught up in this frequent - and frankly tiresome - could admit as much then we wouldn't see threads led astray by such discussion points on a common basis.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Idk, Cilia just seems hellbent on making Garlemald out to be irredeemable villains, hence the long-winded rants to defend this narrative at all points, as if it will make one whit of difference what the developers eventually do.

I will await with bated breath her rationalisations for how Ala Mhigo does not qualify as an irredeemable villain, in spite of maintaining equally bad relations with its neighbours prior to Garlean conquest, and with Ala Mhigans apparently having learnt nothing from it since then, to the point that none of their hosts like them very much.

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Irredeemable? Of course not! I've never said anything of the sort - in fact I have repeatedly argued that Garlemald can be redeemed, but it would take major reforms since their present leadership is completely dismissive of the problems inherent with their philosophy. Their present course is... again, not evil, strictly speaking, but far too destructive and short-sighted to produce an acceptable, long-term solution to the issues plaguing Hydaelyn.

Many Ala Mhigan actions in the past were unacceptable, and the refugees of which often make boneheaded and morally questionable actions. However this ties back in with Heavensward's theme of not blaming the son for the sins of the father - just because the previous generation of Ala Mhigans were jerkfaces to the rest of Eorzea doesn't mean the present generation deserved to have their home taken from them by Garlemald. Without justification. While said present generation can be... belligerent, to say the least, what's driving them is pure desperation - they have no home and very few have been accepted into other Eorzean cities, let alone prospered. The refugees in Ul'dah are mostly wage slaves, very few are allowed entrance to the Twelveswood and Gridania, and the rest live in shantytowns like Little Ala Mhigo. The Garleans are driven by ambitions of conquest, while the Ala Mhigans are driven by a desperate desire for repatriation. It's significantly different.

The difference is the Ala Mhigans have no other real options save surrendering to despair, while the Garleans could always, you know... just stop their path of conquest and work with others to produce a solution that benefits as many as possible, instead of declaring their ideology supreme even though it comes at an extremely heavy cost to everyone (themselves included) and dismissing any arguments against it.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

"Explored"? Seriously? Are you writing a PHD on the topic?

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Haha... with the amount of debating I've done here, I probably could have!

But the truth is that it's political stuff, and political debates can get messy and complicated. And of course it won't change what happens in the end, but debates like this are entertaining to me.

Side note: I am a dude.

If senpai is going to tell me to knock it off, though, I suppose I ought to. I'm being dismissed instead of contested, so I suppose there's no point anyway.

Garlemald as a people and nation isn't an irredeemable villain. The policies of its current leadership and it's general stance towards the rest of the world is both antagonistic and villainous. Neal/Eula's plan to drop a moon on Eorzea was supported by the then Emperor. Their leadership authorised dropping a moon on the planet. The last Calamity is very much due to their actions.

This is part of the irony of Garlemald's activities. They often make things much worse. The Sylph's keep trying to summon Ramuh because of constant Garlean Incursions from their nearby Castrum. The Sahagin are summoning Leviathan because they are now caught in a vicious cycle of war with Limsa after the last Calamity (caused by Garlemald) destroyed their spawning grounds and they had to take a suitable place by force. The Amal'jaa have also been said to have summoned Ifrit out of a sense of desperation though we have little information of their contact with Garlemald. Its sounds very much like the Limia are resorting to Primal summoning too thanks to Garlean oppression. For a group trying to solve the Primal threat they are just making things worse.

Garlemald are the aggressors. The people of Garlemald itself aren't necessarily evil people but the people in control are instituting a policy that is. Now maybe there is some unseen sudden twist that makes Garlemald's intentions far more noble but this looks very much like just a grab for power and control by a group that wants to emulate the Allagans.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Garlemald are the aggressors. The people of Garlemald itself aren't necessarily evil people but the people in control are instituting a policy that is. Now maybe there is some unseen sudden twist that makes Garlemald's intentions far more noble but this looks very much like just a grab for power and control by a group that wants to emulate the Allagans.

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But who are the people in control? We have never met Solus and Varis has like a grand total of five minutes worth of screen time. We do not know what they are like. But like I said, Eula was under the control of a Primal (at least. We really do not know how she exactly learned of Meteor) and Gaius was manipulated by Lahabrea. Of course their efforts are making things worse. They are helped/manipulated by a groupe that wants things to be as bad as possible. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the whole idea of Allagan emulation came from either Lahabrea or Elidibus.

The key is to somehow reveal the Ascian shenanigans to Varis. They seem to hate primals enough not to solve the Ascian problem the same way Thordan tried.

At the very least we can say that Garleans truly believe that they are making things better. They aren't doing this for the evulz. They are fanatical and misguided, but not truly malevolent. At least not in the way Nidhogg or the Ascians are.

Most villians don't do what they do for the sake of being evil. Nor am I saying that Garlemald's current policies are universally approved of or the impacts of them fully understood by the citizenry. However, the reality of Garlemald is that it is an aggressively expansive power, with ruthless scorched earth policies, a ridged and oppressive caste system, and a habit of messing with high risk technology they don't fully understand. Garlemald has all the hallmarks of a empire obsessed with power. Even if its done from the view point of achieving a Greater Good, that can quickly change from being a legitimate reason to just an excuse to justify any and all actions.

I think we will eventually make peace with and probably ally with Garlemald or at least elements of it. I also think destroying the empire would likely cause more harm than good at this point as it would throw half the world into chaos. However I think Garlemald needs to face some pretty major reforms before we reach that point. Garlemald however isn't a hive mind. It has groups with independent opinions and viewpoints and its quite likely we will find groups that have outlooks and opinions that make alliance more feasible.

I think we will end up pulling an Ishgard on Garlemald. It won't change Garlemald completely but adjust it to a point where we can work with them without selling out our existing allies or the Scion's core values.

Corret me if I'm wrong but untill "Someone" started messing with the Containment Facility of the Waring Triad they would have possibly never got free in "our" time & their Aether drain on the planet was eather non-existent or I've forgt if it was mentioned (if it was at all) so technically the Allagian's had a way to (maintenance permiting) perma-hold a Primal so it can't be summoned again (heck I think Omega would have worked to hold 1 Primal till it was delivered to a proper storage facility, almost like a mobile cage... with weapons, just "someone" found it, fiddled with it & made it hold more than it should/could handle)

Still say the Waring Triad would have got free in time cause the place was falling into disrepair (like maybe another 1-10.000 years later). still wanna know if they actually were draining the planets Aether while contained cause I just plain don't know.

As for Garlean Empire, Evil is a matter of perspective cause to you're enemies you are the bad guy (Even if you think their bat-shit crazy murdering thousands... arn't you doing the same to them?)

It truly is a shame that Varis popped up in the Sea of Clouds and was never seen and heard from again. Granted, he has better things to do (run Garlemald) but I was hoping that in later patches he'll speak with the WoL and co more.

I wonder if the Roegadyn we see (who wears a high-ranking uniform like Rhitahtyn) might indicate that under Varis' rule, even non-purebloods can rise into high ranking position based on merit? As it stands, only Gaius was the one who did that. But I can actually see Varis believing in promotion via merit since Regula -despite his own noble status- decided to start at the bottom and work his way up to the position of Van through skill. Varis also had a good relationship with Gaius up until he went rogue. I'd imagine there will be many pure-blood that might not be happy about allowing any of the races to go higher in rank.

Pure speculation, but I do get the feeling that his own son will have him killed just so that he could take control. Zenos did grow up knowing his own family members killed each other off: His Grandfather killing ~8 members of the royal family, his own father warring and executing his own uncle.

Eula also killed everyone even remotely related to House Darnus. Murder seems to be quite fashionable in Garlemald.

Ah, the ever-burning Garlemald argument.

Enough digital ink has been spilled on this, so all I'll say is: "we can't apply modern morality to a fantasy setting" is missing the fact that this is a modern story, written by modern authors, for a modern audience. Modern morality is going to exist in the subtext, and sure enough, the game is FAR less forgiving in its portrayal of Garlemald than...well, pretty much anywhere else. You can go on about how the crimes of the various Eorzean city-states are "just as bad" as the Garlean conquest of the planet, but the former absolutely get more of a pass by the narrative than Garlemald does. That might be a matter of viewpoint, in that we simply haven't been in the position to see how Garlemald's actions have reaped benefits for anyone other than themselves; it might also be the generally negative view that the modern world holds towards unchecked Imperial conquest seeping into the presentation of the story. Cultural attitudes tend to permeate fiction - in fact, it's one of fiction's greatest values, outside of immediate entertainment - and the general modern consensus is decidedly anti-Imperialist.

I'm not saying there's no room for grey morality, just that anybody hoping for a story that portrays world conquest for the benefit of one group over all others as something laudable or good is likely to be very disappointed in the end.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

But like I said, Eula was under the control of a Primal (at least. We really do not know how she exactly learned of Meteor) and Gaius was manipulated by Lahabrea. Of course their efforts are making things worse. They are helped/manipulated by a groupe that wants things to be as bad as possible. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the whole idea of Allagan emulation came from either Lahabrea or Elidibus.

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We actually DO know how she learned of Meteor - her family had a large collection of Allagan artifacts, and it was through those that the idea to use it as a weapon emerged. Also of note: Eula wasn't tempered until after she came to Eorzea, and the Meteor Project was started well before that. Everything she did up until then was completely of her own resolve (and even if she were tempered, she wasn't acting rogue; Meteor had the Emperor's blessing, at least after the failure of Silvertear).

And then there's Gaius. Ascian involvement with him can't really be taken as evidence as Ascian involvement with Garlemald as a whole, since Gaius was effectively rogue during ARR (in fact, the loss of homeland support is what made him desperate enough to side with Lahabrea in the first place). While Ascian hands in Garlean affairs certainly wouldn't be surprising, there's been no evidence of it so far.

But even if there were, I think you're placing too much onus on Ascian manipulation. Ascians don't control the actions of people; they simply take advantage of existing kernels of strife and offer "solutions" that have the potential to snowball into something that could force a Rejoining. What people do with those solutions is entirely out of the Ascians' hands. This is something I'm really rather grateful for; antagonists whose actions are entirely the result of an omnipotent outside evil like the Ascians feels cheap and is ultimately a boring and simplistic take on the nuances of human nature. People do bad and misguided things without the need for literal devils on their shoulders all the time.

From what I remember in the lore book: Rhitahtyn was at the highest rank any non-Garlean could hold in part due to Gaius recognizing his skills and thus being more willing to give him a chance. As well Roes were apparently somewhat instrumental to Garlemald even getting as far as it has which might help them out even if they would still be considered "non-Garlean". Its possible the Roe in the trailer is similar, one who managed to catch the eye of a Legatus with his skill and thus was able to advance farther then the norm.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

But even if there were, I think you're placing too much onus on Ascian manipulation. Ascians don't control the actions of people; they simply take advantage of existing kernels of strife and offer "solutions" that have the potential to snowball into something that could force a Rejoining. What people do with those solutions is entirely out of the Ascians' hands. This is something I'm really rather grateful for; antagonists whose actions are entirely the result of an omnipotent outside evil like the Ascians feels cheap and is ultimately a boring and simplistic take on the nuances of human nature. People do bad and misguided things without the need for literal devils on their shoulders all the time.

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We've also seen what happens when the Ascians do take a more hands-on approach to things, in that it makes it much more easier for us to actually stop them. Time is the Ascians greatest ally, and trying to speed things up screws them HARD.

I really shouldn't do this, but for a few last words...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As far as the genocide of the Beast Tribes go...let's not ignore the frequent trips by the Warrior of Light and other Eorzeans into the heart of various Beast Tribe's territory to slaughter and terrorise them left, right and centre for daring to summon a Primal/Eikon to defend themselves. This occurs even after 'peace' is made with branches of the same Beast Tribes who don't want to summon a Primal.

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We excise choice elements of the beast tribes - those that pose a direct threat, and even then, only when they are actually being threatening. The Garleans would simply execute each and every one, even the ones that aren't a threat at all, simply because they could become threats.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's also stated in the lore book that Garlemald sought 'whatever means were necessary' to defend their interests back when they were being pushed around. It's very likely that they did seek more peaceful methods to survive yet it did not amount to anything.

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I still fail to see how that has anything to do with Garlean conquest of territories that had nothing to do with their mistreatment, let alone the cruelty with which they treat conquered peoples. Mistreating others because you were mistreated yourself is amoral at best - especially when those you are now conquering and mistreating in turn had nothing to do with your own mistreatment, as whether any Eorzean nation had anything to do with that is highly questionable. Doma / Othard almost certainly didn't. Besides, it's no longer about survival - it's now about conquest, and immoral (or amoral) actions are far less acceptable when you're simply seeking to add to your opulence.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Then, of course, there's also the matter of the Warrior of Light actively hunting down both Garleans and members of various Beast Tribes with the sole intention of sucking up their aether/souls to empower their weapon. This is often glossed over and yet if Garlemald ever does something like that I bet it'll never stop being brought up.

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I actually think I'm the one who originally brought that up? But... the actions of an individual should not be taken as a reflection of an entire nation or culture. We (the Warrior of Light) might do some questionable / amoral things for personal interests, but as nations the Eorzean city-states are fine with leaving Garlemald alone as long as Garlemald doesn't go on the warpath against them. The inverse is untrue: Garlemald loves it some conquest, and can and will attack Eorzea because it wants to conquer the region. Stopping primal summonings may be an important thing to do, but Garlemald would still conquer Eorzea even if primals weren't a thing... because it's there to conquer. That's why I can't get behind the idea that "Eorzea is just as amoral as Garlemald."

I think there is a middle ground here. Garlemald is a group we aren't going to ally with its current policies. That doesn't mean that Garlemald as a empire isn't a group we may ally with in the future if there is a change in policy. If we are realistic is highly unlikely we would completely bring down Garlemald. Doing so would create a power vacuum which would probably lead to wide spread war. Infact it wouldn't surprise me in the least if that turns out to be a future Ascian plan. Build up Garlemald and then pull the rug out leading to total anarchy over much of the world.

However, in its current state and with it's current policies, I don't see us working with Garlemald proper except in the most extreme circumstances and then only under a temporary truce. I do think though whatever we do in 4.X is going to have massive repercussions in Garlemald which is why I think we will be going their in 5.0, not as an force to destroy Garlemald but as one trying to keep the conflicting factions within Garlemald from causing everything to go to hell. I think its very likely we will meet a Garlean in 4.X that we end up working closely with in 5.X to try and keep Garlemald from exploding.

In this way we take down the bad guy but still have to deal with the consequences of our choices. In a great sense of irony one of Garlemald's greatest enemies ends up having to be one of the ones saving it.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

We actually DO know how she learned of Meteor - her family had a large collection of Allagan artifacts, and it was through those that the idea to use it as a weapon emerged.

And then there's Gaius.

But even if there were, I think you're placing too much onus on Ascian manipulation. Ascians don't control the actions of people; they simply take advantage of existing kernels of strife and offer "solutions" that have the potential to snowball into something that could force a Rejoining. People do bad and misguided things without the need for literal devils on their shoulders all the time.

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Sure, we know she learned from the artifacts, but we really don't know how she learned. I'm hardly an expert, but interacting with Allagan artifacts might not be easy. She may have had help.

True, Gaius was rogue. But like you said, it wouldn't be surprising if it turned out Ascians are influencing Garlemald.

At this point I think you are just arguing semantics. I hav a degree in linguistics by the way, so believe me when I say it is too much. If their suggestions can lead to Ultima Weapon being unleashed on Eorzea it doesn't really matter how much of it was Gaius' idea and how much was Lahabrea. Any Garlean solution with Ascian input will fail, and it will fail because of the Ascian input.

I also prefer villains like Thordan, who wanted to screw over Ascians even while they were around him, but we won't be sure if Varis is like that, till we get to Garlemald. At the very least Zenos will be there in 4.0 to evaluate.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Sure, we know she learned from the artifacts, but we really don't know how she learned. I'm hardly an expert, but interacting with Allagan artifacts might not be easy. She may have had help.

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Yes, she MIGHT have, but there's no evidence that she did (outside of the amassed records and science teams at her disposal). If you're going to use this to support the idea that the Ascians are involved in Garlean affairs, you need direct evidence, and Nael working with the Ascians has never even been kind of implied.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

If their suggestions can lead to Ultima Weapon being unleashed on Eorzea it doesn't really matter how much of it was Gaius' idea and how much was Lahabrea. Any Garlean solution with Ascian input will fail, and it will fail because of the Ascian input.

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But that's...not what the discussion was about? I didn't say anything about who was primarily responsible for Ultima. You were using Gaius' involvement with Lahabrea to suggest that the Ascians were manipulating Garlemald behind the scenes, which in turn was being used to suggest that Garlemald couldn't be blamed for their actions. I disagreed; as Gaius was rogue at the time, it's evidence of nothing other than his own desperation.

We do know that the Ascians are keeping an eye on Garlemald, but certain pieces of dialog actually imply that their approach is entirely hands-off - an offhand, unconcerned remark about them "playing their part." They clearly fit into the greater Ascian scheme, but if the Ascians were directly involved their affairs and governance, don't you think we'd have at least gotten a hint of it? And then, of course, there's the very direct claim made by Yoshida that the Ascians are going to play a much smaller role in 4.0 - which, incidentally, is a story that will bring Garlemald back to the forefront. If that isn't evidence against Ascian manipulation in Garlemald, I don't know what is.

I like arguing with you. You make it challenging.

While it is likely that "Nael" was really doing everything on her own, we did see Lahabrea observing the Battle of Cartenau with the typical Ascian "All according to keikaku" attitude. It was a calamity after all. It's what they do. They had to be involved somehow.

Gaius was just brought up as a precedent for Ascian involvement in Garlean affairs. The part about Ultima you quothed was in response of your point after that, about how the Ascians merely give suggestions instead of directly controlling people. And it really doesn't matter cause the end result is still something that benefits the Ascians. Like I said before, any Garlean solution to the Primal threat with Ascian input will fail, even if it is done with the best of intentions.

I do not think we would have heared if the Ascians were involved with Garlean governance considering we never even saw Emperor Solus, and Varis was on screen for five minutes. 4.0 will be the first time we will see how they govern areas.

Yes, we wil see less of the Ascians, thankfully, but we can't be sure how much less that actually is. In 3.0 We battled two Ascian overlords and Elidibus sent the Warriors of Darkness to fight us. Less than this can be still quite a lot.

Ultimately it's Zodiark and the Ascians that are the 'big bads' in this setting. Even then, arguably, Hydaelyn still isn't telling us everything and we know that we can't eliminate the Ascians completely as balance between 'Light' and 'Dark' is essential for the world's survival. The Garleans may be acting purely on their own terms, as well intentioned extremists. They see the 'bigger picture' and don't have the convenient plot device that is the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems.

Imagine for a moment that Eorzea was forced to endure all its current problems without the Warrior of Light. What would have happened? How would those problems be solved instead, assuming they weren't completely catastrophic/hopeless? We know that Primals can be killed by regular people but it's at a great cost as evidenced by the lengthy 'Company of Heroes' quest chain in Eastern La Noscea. Chances are to survive Eorzea would have resorted to increasingly brutal means to attempt to survive and endure - perhaps even going on the offensive to completely wipe out the Beast Tribes to ensure that they don't have to deal with Primals/Eikons being summoned over and over and over again, Tempering and slaughtering many of their people in the process.

It's one of the nuances that will become more obvious when we see more of the lands where the Warrior of Light isn't available to be a 'quick convenient fix' to whatever new threat emerges.

Lands like Gyr Abania?

Yes we need darkness as well as light. Problem is Darkness is somehow more harmful than light, so the correct forumla would be something like: 65% Light - 35% Darkness.

Tomorrow we will get the patch with the Zurvan fight and the first half of the main scenario. We might not learn a lot more about the Garleans just yet, but Yoshi-P did promise us more info about the Void and all the shards. As well as a cliffhanger.

Any last minute guesses everyone? Place your bets.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Imagine for a moment that Eorzea was forced to endure all its current problems without the Warrior of Light. What would have happened?

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Ascians have a field day as they go on teaching everyone who's getting a little desperate the secret behind primal summoning, Ultima magicks or other nice gimmicks of dark sorcery without opposition. Mass tempering ensues - first all of Ishgard by King Thordan and the heretics by Lady Shiva, later every city state and beast tribe with their respective primals, until it's only primals and their thralls fighting other primals and their thralls. Hydaelyn, meanwhile, bleeds and Elidibus has a very stern talk with one of his colleagues as they might lose the source world at this rate.
-> New protagonists are the ascians trying to fix the mess they have created.

Fun!

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Ascians have a field day as they go on teaching everyone who's getting a little desperate the secret behind primal summoning, Ultima magicks or other nice gimmicks of dark sorcery without opposition. Mass tempering ensues - first all of Ishgard by King Thordan and the heretics by Lady Shiva, later every city state and beast tribe with their respective primals, until it's only primals and their thralls fighting other primals and their thralls. Hydaelyn, meanwhile, bleeds and Elidibus has a very stern talk with one of his colleagues as they might lose the source world at this rate.
-> New protagonists are the ascians trying to fix the mess they have created.

Fun!

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You know, that wouldn't be all that bad to play. But I wonder. Would they really do that? Simply let the primals loose I mean? The previous calamities were more creative than that?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Garleans may be acting purely on their own terms, as well intentioned extremists. They see the 'bigger picture' and don't have the convenient plot device that is the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems.

Imagine for a moment that Eorzea was forced to endure all its current problems without the Warrior of Light. What would have happened?

It's one of the nuances that will become more obvious when we see more of the lands where the Warrior of Light isn't available to be a 'quick convenient fix' to whatever new threat emerges.

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This is partially speculated on by Alphinaud and Allisaie, and we can probably fill in the blanks.

Eorzean relations with the beast tribes would have gotten worse, leading to an all out war that would have had mixed results at best, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Gridania would have the best chance against the Ixal and the isolationist sylphs, Uldah would hold their own with great losses against the Amaljaa, and Limsa, even if it have an answer to titan, would likely have no feasible answer against Leviathan. Weakened as they are, they would have taken Gaius' offer of surrender, who would in turn be betrayed by Lahabrea's hijacking of the Ultima Weapon once he nabs the Beastmen's Primals. Simply put, Gaius' plans of making Eorzea part of the Empire would be in ruins once Lahabrea starts joyriding with the Ultima Weapon.

Notice the key here for Lahabrea winning is Gaius' want for the Ultima Weapon, if Gaius had the resources and wherewithal to conventionally wipe out the Beastmen, Lahabrea's plans get a lot dicier.

The primal problem becomes unsolvable, because even with the Ultima Weapon, no one is in place to stymie its players beneath it.

I would be really disappointed if Unukalhai and Cait Sith will pull the "noble sacrifice" card in order to prevent ___ from ending in the wrong hands.

Hopefully I am wrong, but I can see Cait Sith take the Nullstone + Void Ark to unknown location so that such power won't used again. In the case of Unukalhai, he probably will have to return to his own world ... or sacrifice himself to save WoL after being so inspired the WoL.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Imagine for a moment that Eorzea was forced to endure all its current problems without the Warrior of Light. What would have happened? How would those problems be solved instead, assuming they weren't completely catastrophic/hopeless?

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What you're doing here is presuming guilt based on a possibility. Could Eorzea have endured the frequent primal attacks of the past six years without us? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But they endured +/- 1,500 years of relatively peaceful coexistence with each other and the beast tribes before the Battle of Silvertear Skies, so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they would not go on a campaign of genocide. Might that have resulted in the destruction of Eorzean civilization? Perhaps... but dealing in possibilities is unwise, and presuming guilt based on possibilities doubly so.

Now, imagine for a moment that primals were not a thing. The world was not going to end because people could summon living mako reactors. Look at it from a purely political perspective. Would Garlemald still be on its never-ending campaign of conquest? Yes it would - we know this because prior to their invasion of Othard the Garleans were barely even aware of the existence of primals, let alone what they are and how detrimental they are to the world. They had already conquered all Ilsabard before getting there, and were unaware of primals before beginning their campaign. Their attempts to stop primal summonings are as much an effort to ease their path of conquest as they are an effort to preserve Hydaelyn (if only so they can rule over it).

You don't get to play the "Well-Intentioned Extremist" card when even without the ambiguous necessity of those extreme actions you'd still be doing them. Would they have declared genocide on the beast tribes? Perhaps not, but everything else - the war machine, the unending conquest, and the brutalization of conquered peoples - would still hold.

I get to play the 'Well Intentioned Extremist' card because that's exactly what Garlemald is depicted as being. Just like they're depicted as having their own motivations and reasoning for doing what they're doing as well as justifications for their actions from their own perspective.

Feel free to create your own thread for the circular arguments regarding Garlemald's morality though. I'd appreciate it immensely if the bulk of this particular thread wasn't led astray by tiresome repetitions of stuff that has already been discussed over and over in previous threads between the same select few individuals. It's clear at this point that we're not going to budge so I'm not entirely sure what this accomplishes beyond 'getting the last word in'.

I'm sure there's plenty of other people - both lurkers and regulars - who are equally as weary of having to scrolls past the same points being brought up again and again. Especially when there's a bunch of other issues to be discussed instead.

That's not to suggest that this is a demand, mind you. More of a polite request.