Ninja: Heaven-Sword (And Beyond)

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

If my math is correct the 200 void ark chest will beat out the 210 chest upgraded without taking food into account

total dex weight for the 210 chest
105.884

total dex weight for the void ark chest
107.276

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It...actually does, yeah.

The big problem of the ninja is your dps is so low compared to other melee classes, that use of the TA is negligible because the low ninja dps contribution. Energy is a minor problem in ninja. The big problem is that the ninja is behind the other melee classes somewhere around 200 dps a good ninja do 1350 dps and a good dragoon do 1550 dps ...

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Originally Posted by Fellesarah

The big problem of the ninja is your dps is so low compared to other melee classes, that use of the TA is negligible because the low ninja dps contribution. Energy is a minor problem in ninja. The big problem is that the ninja is behind the other melee classes somewhere around 200 dps a good ninja do 1350 dps and a good dragoon do 1550 dps ...

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No we're not TP is the major issue we had not DPS

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Originally Posted by Fellesarah

The big problem of the ninja is your dps is so low compared to other melee classes, that use of the TA is negligible because the low ninja dps contribution. Energy is a minor problem in ninja. The big problem is that the ninja is behind the other melee classes somewhere around 200 dps a good ninja do 1350 dps and a good dragoon do 1550 dps ...

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Why do people keep pulling numbers out of their arse? Ninja is no where near 200 dps behind the other melee. The ninjas who can't keep up keep crying for buffs that are just going to warrant a bigger nerf than the buff itself.

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...obal&spec=Monk [Ignore the Top 3 entires(AST fed) look at "Kaito Asagiri"]
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...l&spec=Dragoon [Ignore the Top 1 entry(AST fed) look at "Phantom Assassin"]
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...bal&spec=Ninja [Ignore the Top 2 entries(AST fed) look at "Rorin Aeria"]

Monk: 1405.4
Dragoon: 1365.8
Ninja: 1310.2

These are actual numbers, from an actual sustained fight. This is NOT 200 dps difference.

Notice how both the top MNK&DRG have a "NIN" in their party, therefore being buffed by TRICK ATTACK. Without the Ninja in the group, they would not have achieved those numbers(barring bringing lolAST).

Now let us take off Ninja's contribution to MNK&DRG dps. I'm gonna use 1.6% increase to their overall dps (even though Trick attack adds more than 1.6% to raid dps).

Monk: 1383.3
DRG: 1344.3
NIN: 1310.2

Ninja contributed 22.1 dps (BARE MINIMUM) to the MNK alone. Now lets add that number to ninja's dps.

MNK: 1383.3
NIN: 1332.3

By adding just Ninja's contribution to MNK dps to NIN, they are only 51 dps away now. Now let us go add the dps gains from the other 6 players to Ninja...

By the way, this is only Trick Attack.
Do you honestly believe Ninja needs a buff to their dps?

Sorry if I'm missing it but have they addressed specifically they mean to do with the mudras in 3.1? The patch note is quite vague.

They intend to "alleviate" mudra lag with 3.1. We'll see how successful that'll be. (Gonna bet they've been testing it side-by-side the servers themselves) :rolleyes:

As for specifics I believe they said they are changing the "algorithms" of which the mudras are done.

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Originally Posted by Fellesarah

snip

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Just realized you're the "Akiza" for the NIN threads. I'm sorry I wasted my time trying to explain.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

total dex weight for the 210 chest
105.884

total dex weight for the void ark chest
107.276

wouldn't be able to hit the acc cap though in a4s if you used the void ark chest

this obviously isn't taking into account airship gear

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where can this info be found? >.>

The Mudra changes are FANTASTIC. It's utterly, supremely fast and smooth now. I don't know what they did but I'm giddy.

Oh my goodness, mudra's are so smooth and fast now that I could hardly believe it. I have to be honest, when i heard they were going to try to make mudra more smooth, I didn't think it be THIS smooth. it's sooo awesome.

Raiton still has that somewhat minor animation lock i'm afraid.

Seriously the changes on NIN are quite amazing O_o!!

Mudras are so much better now than they ever were with WTFast running... and this morning WTFast didnt even want to work...
Im so glad now I can enjoy this job (and the game) without relying on WTFast at all!!

Also the TP reduction on both Shadow Fang and Mutilate is so notorious to save on TP... was able to hit both Invigorates and still have quite ways for some more... maybe now I can brave those exact 2.00 GCDs once more >:|!!!

Now they need to just apply this to Jump lock ~_~

Raiton's animation lock is weird. I did one 3m parse with fuma and raiton at their appropriate moments and another with just raiton. Turns out the Raiton only parse was 30 DPS lower than the other.


the animation lock is real

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

Raiton's animation lock is weird. I did one 3m parse with fuma and raiton at their appropriate moments and another with just raiton. Turns out the Raiton only parse was 30 DPS lower than the other.


the animation lock is real

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You did just one parse of each? If so that's not near enough data to conclude much. Also did you directly compare crit rates of your various skills and auto attacks? Crit RNG on a three minute parse can be pretty extreme on your ending DPS.

I'm not trying to say that Raiton is or isn't a big loss. I have no idea as I do not play ninja. I do try to stay informed though, but I'm just more curious of your testing methodology. Many people don't do more extensive testing which is needed to really determine the value or lack of value in a move. I would urge you to get a bard to go along when you parse to play Paeon for you so you can do some long continuous parses so that your crit rate will level out more, and do multiple runs of both.

Oh its normal stuff really, Raiton has a longer execution than Shuriken, so on a normal parse were you never actually leave the target's side obviously the one that doesn't clip at all on your GCD (Shuriken) will be stronger than the other.

This has been true since the beginning, really. Hence they discussions of Shuriken vs Raiton.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Oh its normal stuff really, Raiton has a longer execution than Shuriken, so on a normal parse were you never actually leave the target's side obviously the one that doesn't clip at all on your GCD (Shuriken) will be stronger than the other.

This has been true since the beginning, really. Hence they discussions of Shuriken vs Raiton.

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Be that as it may. I was just saying throwing a number around such as 30 DPS difference when comparing only two runs of 3 minutes is not informative because it lacks sufficient data and is easily muddied by crit RNG. I'm not trying to put words in Phireblast's mouth either which is why I was trying get some more details. Anyway, more to the point it can be potentially bad to say things like it's a 30 DPS difference without substantial backing because people love clinging to numbers regardless of data being present to back it up.

I kinda want to bring up something for discussion

with the new gear (VA chest/hands, thordan weapon), we can eliminate skill speed from our itemization, this will increase our gcd under huton from 2.02-2.03 previously to 2.05-2.07 range.
this might potentially influence our opener where after TA we have SF>MU>duality AE, the AE might miss the TA buff. Quite a bit of fights also have movement mechanics right around when we do AE.
would it be more beneficial to guarantee the duality AE by going SF>AE>MU after TA in the opener, this delays mutilate by about 2 ticks and potentially forces it out of the TA window. This means you also have time for kassatsu raiton and not worrying about AE falling out of TA.

for personal record, with 2.02 gcd i can pull off TA-SF-MU-AE with raiton, but with 2.05gcd(VA chest) the AE almost certainly falls out.

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

Raiton's animation lock is weird. I did one 3m parse with fuma and raiton at their appropriate moments and another with just raiton. Turns out the Raiton only parse was 30 DPS lower than the other.


the animation lock is real

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Even under the most ideal conditions that was always the case with the skill speed ninja has at level 60, there's no way for it not to clip. Save Raiton for kassatsu and/or foes requiem.

https://puu.sh/lklvf/aa99b9b008.png
Not bad.

could be better, but not bad.

I don't mind this since I love this idea in games like Diablo, but geeZ increase the drop rate of ilvl 210, unless come 3.2 they allow you to meld it.

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Originally Posted by Xenon_S

I kinda want to bring up something for discussion

with the new gear (VA chest/hands, thordan weapon), we can eliminate skill speed from our itemization, this will increase our gcd under huton from 2.02-2.03 previously to 2.05-2.07 range.
this might potentially influence our opener where after TA we have SF>MU>duality AE, the AE might miss the TA buff. Quite a bit of fights also have movement mechanics right around when we do AE.
would it be more beneficial to guarantee the duality AE by going SF>AE>MU after TA in the opener, this delays mutilate by about 2 ticks and potentially forces it out of the TA window. This means you also have time for kassatsu raiton and not worrying about AE falling out of TA.

for personal record, with 2.02 gcd i can pull off TA-SF-MU-AE with raiton, but with 2.05gcd(VA chest) the AE almost certainly falls out.

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It shouldn't serve a problem tbh, as long as you hit AE while the debuff icon is still on the mob, you get the effect. Just tried it with the i190 chest and hive weapon (don't have sks on the 210 hands anyway) and I got it everytime. But then again, I got lucky with the chaos datacenter transfer as I live like 15km from where the new server park is located, so my Raiton clipping is as low as it can possibly get, especially after the 3.1 fixes. Might be more of an issue for players with more lag though.

Shasta's Ninja guide updated not too long ago claiming with Mudra lag gone, Raiton is pretty much better when no buffs other than poisons and slashing debuffs are present, which means if you have things such as BFB or TA up, Raiton is ideal....but wasn't that always the case? Or was that strictly with Foes/Kass?
(gcd clipping is based off of his(?) gcd delay of 2.01)
http://puu.sh/lurzT/b79e7dc7cf.png

Link to thread: http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/...as-ninja-guide

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

Shasta's Ninja guide updated not too long ago claiming with Mudra lag gone, Raiton is pretty much better when no buffs other than poisons and slashing debuffs are present, which means if you have things such as BFB or TA up, Raiton is ideal....but wasn't that always the case? Or was that strictly with Foes/Kass?

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Sounds like nothing's changed. That said, I've done some testing the last few days and found that the magical ninjutsu do less damage than weaponskills of the same potency (Fuma is legitimately 240 potency, though), so his potency difference numbers will be very slightly off.

Like Phireblast assumed, before the 3.1 changes it was Raiton when Kassatsu and/or Foe's is up and Shuriken in every other situation, so it definitely changed.

If Raiton really does kess damage than phisycal WS's with the same potency, that might change it again lol. ^^

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Like Phireblast assumed, before the 3.1 changes it was Raiton when Kassatsu and/or Foe's is up and Shuriken in every other situation, so it definitely changed.

If Raiton really does kess damage than phisycal WS's with the same potency, that might change it again lol. ^^

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I can confirm it strongly for Katon vs uncombo'd Aeolian, and for Hyoton vs Mug. Doton is matching my Mutilate dots, but that could just be due to smaller values not showing the discrepancy.

Edit: I should note, though, that it's not a full potency of damage difference at 180 potency, so maybe a potency or potency and a half at 360. It would likely not change decisions at all, just the amount of clipping it takes to care.

What happend with the extraodrinarie patch 2 week ago? Why changing again ninja algorithm?
It was soo fluid and perfect using mudra, now seems like we're again in 2.4.
Why ruin this job like this?

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunter

What happend with the extraodrinarie patch 2 week ago? Why changing again ninja algorithm?
It was soo fluid and perfect using mudra, now seems like we're again in 2.4.
Why ruin this job like this?

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Why 'again'? It was the first change ever and it's hilariously awesome now. They didn't change anything ever from 2.4 until two weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Why 'again'? It was the first change ever and it's hilariously awesome now. They didn't change anything ever from 2.4 until two weeks ago.

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I wrote "again" because with 3.1 they were very smooth and fast (1 change).
Now they r changed again, like 2.4 so still slower and laggy (2nd)
That's what i mean. With the new algo they were simply perfect

Dint u even notice the 2nd change with the extraordinaie patch?

There have been two hotfixes since 3.1, one on 11.12. and one on 11.17., and none of them have done anything to mudras (go read the notes), nor did I notice a change, nor do I know or hear of any other nin noticing changes for the worse after 3.1. Mudras are finally smooth as silk, and we're enjoying it.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

There have been two hotfixes since 3.1, one on 11.12. and one on 11.17., and none of them have done anything to mudras (go read the notes), nor did I notice a change, nor do I know or hear of any other nin noticing changes for the worse after 3.1. Mudras are finally smooth as silk, and we're enjoying it.

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Im on Ragnarok and i can tell u without doubt that on the extraordinarie patch the mudra algo has ben changed again and the cool and smooth mudra ur talking about has disappear. I ask to other player on my server and they say that they changed algo because on European server, expecially chaos, there s too much lag and that algo was too smoth for us (bullsh**). So now on Ragnarock we have the same mudra algo form 2.4, and the smooth as silk algo ur talking about has disapper. I realy dont like to play like this because some ppl dont have a good connection, i pay 4 the game and for my internet, so i pretend to have the smooth mudra like u have again.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunter

Im on Ragnarok and i can tell u without doubt that on the extraordinarie patch the mudra algo has ben changed again and the cool and smooth mudra ur talking about has disappear. I ask to other player on my server and they say that they changed algo because on European server, expecially chaos, there s too much lag and that algo was too smoth for us (bullsh**). So now on Ragnarock we have the same mudra algo form 2.4, and the smooth as silk algo ur talking about has disapper. I realy dont like to play like this because some ppl dont have a good connection, i pay 4 the game and for my internet, so i pretend to have the smooth mudra like u have again.

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Just... lol...

Nothing got changed. For no one. Period.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Just... lol...

Nothing got changed. For no one. Period.

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Create a character on Ragnarok and tell me if mudras are smooth or laggy. Mudras were smooth for 1 or 2 weeks and then, after extraordinarie patch, they came back to lag as sh**. All ninjas on ragnarok noticed that.

Is there a way to talk to developers?

i do noicte after some hotfix , mudras back to slow and feel sloppy again. :(

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Originally Posted by Cressidia

i do noicte after some hotfix , mudras back to slow and feel sloppy again. :(

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Yes AGAIN is the key world. We are at the same point, and we can't accept this. I want to see mudras "smooth as silk" as developers promise to us

I just tested and mine are still smooth like they were on 3.1 release. Not sure why you are having issues again but they didnt change anything.

Sounds more like you guys have a really bad connection, still smooth at my and others end. Like Surged said, no other changes were maid after the mudra fix.
Look at the notes if you do not believe us.

If i have a bad connection how can i say that mudras were smoother for 2 weeks after 3.1 and after extraordinarie patch they return lagging?

Btw i know there is nothing written about this, but still the fact remains

It's just you, mine are as smooth as ever.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunter

If i have a bad connection how can i say that mudras were smoother for 2 weeks after 3.1 and after extraordinarie patch they return lagging?

Btw i know there is nothing written about this, but still the fact remains

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Correlation doesn't imply casualty. It could have been that your connection was performing better during that time period. The mudras for me (as tested last night 11/26/15) worked good. Wayyyyyyy better than they did before the original hotfix. It should be noted that it said depending on latency and connections some player will still experience lag. Is there a data center closer to where you live? If not have you though about WTfast?